Latest posts for the topic "How willing are you to Kill your PC's?"

How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Ichiban11 — GMT

No not the players themselves, though at times I do feel the urge to go get my Whiffle Bat and hand down the Emperor's Wrath .

At first I tried to keep them alive just till they got their feet under them. Most of my players are new to RPGs and I didn't want to scare them away. I was counting on my ringers to coach and help them along tioll they understood how RPGs worked and I never played with them before so I needed to feel them out too.

Now that their 4th and 5th level the kid gloves are off and the MMA Gloves are on!

Not going to go bare knuckle on them yet though. Gonna wait till their good and ready.

I try not to fudge the dice if I don't have to, but when I do it's in their favor. And if they do something stupid I'll try to warn them, but if they go ahead with it anyway it's much their game as mine.

Unless of course it's part of the plot then they might die.

And killer GM's are not fun.

Also what level do you think that you'll take the gloves off?

How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Alasseo — GMT

The kid gloves never go on, but that is at least partly because I have a fairly experienced group of players, not just for RPGs in general, but for the 40k setting in particular.
I don't fudge rolls unless it is completely critical to the plot (or an NPC has such stupidly bad luck that their failure beggars belief), although the players won't see the dice unless I decide to show them the result after rolling.

While I don't [i]try[/i] and kill the PCs, I have no qualms about putting them in situations where they can get themselves killed. They will get a warning if they are about to do something suicidally stupid (two, in fact: three chances to do it right), they won't get any other help. As a result, they are all on their second characters at least:
They got wiped (well, total party fate-burn) by a lance strike after spectacularly hacking off the Commodore who was originally written to be their biggest ally (well, aside from their =][=, of course, but he's on the other side of the sub-sector), apart from the psyker, who accidentally 'teleported' himself into low orbit without the benefit of a vac-suit.

Essentially, I'm willing to kill PCs if and when the situation calls for it, but I don't go out of my way to do so

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Ichiban11 — GMT

[quote] They got wiped (well, total party fate-burn) by a lance strike after spectacularly hacking off the Commodore who was originally written to be their biggest ally[/quote]

THAT IS AWESOME!!!

[quote]the psyker, who accidentally 'teleported' himself into low orbit without the benefit of a vac-suit. [/quote]

That's just hilarious!

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

TheWarriorPoet519 — GMT

How willing am I to kill my PC's?

That depends.

How heroic/stupid do they feel like being?

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Bubonicus — GMT

I generally resort to character death when:

a) I feel the PCs story is over. If the PC's story isn't over, I tend to inflict permanent injuries on the character rather than killing them.

b) The player is not "getting it" aesthetically. When characters run around doing suicidal or overly cinematic stuff. I'll also kill characters if I feel their characterization is inappropriate or difficult to work with. Characters who obsess over acquiring specific gear totally piss me off as well.

I also have a policy of NEVER interfering when inter-party violence breaks out. I think that's a level of autonomy that players should always have. It feels to much like a video game when GMs intervene whenever a character is attacked by another PC.

Honestly, I generally find that I grant the best, most committed and focused role-player a significant level of script immunity. If a player puts in that sort of excellent effort, their character becomes more and more central to the plot. Characters that suck and players that are problematic tend to have zero script immunity.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Jaxicle — GMT

I don't often try to kill my PCs, but if they have bad luck or do stupid things, they will get hurt or burn fate. Emperor help that damn fanatic priest next time he charges at half dozen heretics with lasguns, alone, with no armor and only two-handed sword for weapon. He's already running low with fate and he hasn't even noticed his firebombs yet.

Of course there are times when the plot may require me to sacrifice a PC. When that happens, I warn the player before it happens ("You know, your guy is going to bite dust in our next game, please make a new one already, ok?") so they don't think I'm unfair because they couldn't use fate to not die.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Code13 — GMT

My players are all VERY experienced gamers, and GMs themselves in other games so ther glovers were off from the moment the ink was dry on the character sheets.

First session saw fate points burned.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Snidesworth — GMT

[quote=Jaxicle]Of course there are times when the plot may require me to sacrifice a PC. When that happens, I warn the player before it happens ("You know, your guy is going to bite dust in our next game, please make a new one already, ok?") so they don't think I'm unfair because they couldn't use fate to not die.[/quote]

I can't say I approve of that line of thinking. Marking a specific player for death and then making sure he can do nothing about it? Even telling him that you're going to kill him off? The player isn't playing any more, he's just acting out "his" part in your story.

Characters get hurt in my game when they do stupid things. Psyker stands out in the open during a firefight, gets dropped to -2 wounds in one autopistol burst. I fudge rolls when luck has gone against the group to an unfair extent (they all keep missing, the enemies keep rolling sub-10s), but they've got fate points to burn so I'm not [i]too[/i] leniant.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Bubonicus — GMT

[quote=Snidesworth][quote=Jaxicle]Of course there are times when the plot may require me to sacrifice a PC. When that happens, I warn the player before it happens ("You know, your guy is going to bite dust in our next game, please make a new one already, ok?") so they don't think I'm unfair because they couldn't use fate to not die.[/quote]

The player isn't playing any more, he's just acting out "his" part in your story.[/quote]

I don't see how these things are different.

From what I've read, Dark Heresy is best used with a narrativist play-style - it doesn't hold up well when handled in a more gamist fashion. Ultimately, it's not an issue of "fair" because the challenge is loaded to begin with. I do whatever is necessary to progress the story and my players are fully agreeable to this.

Of course fate points can be used to disrupt any sort of demise I throw at a character (or at least modify it).

Also I wanted to add something to my post above:

In the case of player problems (as opposed to character problems), I ALWAYS try to solve the issue with a player-to-GM discussion first. It is only in cases where a player is hopeless that I'll resort to in-game solutions to remove them from my game. However, in most of these cases I will just ask the player to leave and handle his character's removal from the game with a bit of narrative with no dice being rolled.

Luckily, I rarely play with new players and all of my players have been playing and writing RPGs for years - both as GMs and PCs - and I almost never have issues. If I do, it can always be resolved with a comfortable group conversation.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

schoon — GMT

The answer to this question really comes down to your group's play style.

However, fudging rolls should always be the [b]GM[/b]'s tool of last resort, only to be used when [b]blind, dumb luck[/b] has caused the problem.

[b]Sandy Petersen[/b] of [i]Call of Cthulhu[/i] fame did an article on [b]GM[/b] tips once, and had this to say about killing PCs (please forgive the horrid paraphrasing):

Give your players three warnings before killing them. In other words, using a fantasy example, if the group is on the way towards a dragon that's way too much for them to handle, first give them evidence that there's a dragon about - burned fields, rumors, whatever. If they don't pick up on that, give them a second warning, perhaps the remains of a group as large as theirs. Lastly, as their about to enter what is clearly the dragon's lair, give them a final chance to turn back.

If they still go in to tackle the dragon, they deserve what they get, not die fudging required.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Snidesworth — GMT

[quote=Bubonicus]From what I've read, Dark Heresy is best used with a narrativist play-style - it doesn't hold up well when handled in a more gamist fashion. Ultimately, it's not an issue of "fair" because the challenge is loaded to begin with. I do whatever is necessary to progress the story and my players are fully agreeable to this.[/quote]

Apologies, allow me to expand on my thinking. The GM and players working together to craft a story is good stuff. The GM crafting the story he wants and offing player characters to suit his own conception of how the story should run is an entirely different thing. Pre-planned deaths loose a lot of their scare factor because, well, its not the fickle nature of the dice/universe/system at play, but the GM going "X is dead." If this serves a good [i]narrative[/i] purpose then the trade off is worth it, but only for those the narrative extends to. The narrative is very much shared between the GM and his players; the moment the GM starts to run his own story and remove the players from the crafting of it then the players become nothing more than actors with a set of lines and motions to go through.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Bubonicus — GMT

[quote=Snidesworth]
; the moment the GM starts to run his own story and remove the players from the crafting of it then the players become nothing more than actors with a set of lines and motions to go through.[/quote]

I completely agree.

And to be more clear...

I think that a character's death should only be used to punctuate that character's story - never as a "red shirt" for another PC, and especially not for an NPC.

Insofar as fudging. I agree that it should be minimized as well. However, I also think that a LOT of things need to be hand-waved. Generally I feel that if you know you may have to fudge a roll, it's often better not to make it at all and just make a GM call.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Mark It Zero — GMT

Like all things when I GM it depends on the circumstances. My players know when to cut and run so although they've burned fate points death hasn't really come up quite yet.

I don't have a set policy on character death. I prefer that death be memorable and entertaining but there are occassions where a character who plays with fire should be burned.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

fester — GMT

Firstly, the fatepoint system that GW invented for the first warhammer fantasy RPG has done away with most of the need to tweak the situations.

This gives the players a way to survive unforseable lucky hits from the NPC's and counter bad luck rolls.

True just because FP's exist it does not meen you cant run out of FP's and then get a bad luck roll but there is a buffer atleast.

That said, should you tweak the situation.
Well it as always depends on the situation, its hard to balance an encounter and thus from time to time there will be cases when the players have done everything to the best of their ability and still cant seem to win, at such situations I can imagine a slight tweak is in order, more commonly however we all know that if the players are upp shit creak without boat, paddle or coveralls it is their own fault.

Never, and I meen NEVER help the players if they do really stupid things, if you do then they will learn that things will work out nomatter what they do and thus get imunised to doing stupid things. This can only lead to very bad situations when they take on anything head on despite they should really not stand a chance and you ending upp tweaking the situation again and again.

Be hard but fair!

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

vinterdraken — GMT

I have no issue with killing of my PCs, although I usually try not to actively get them killed, the always do such a good job of that themselves. There are fate points after all and the 40k verse is dark and brutal. I do however sometimes have problems with my players getting maimed or or killed on stupid things when it serves no purpose to the story. Like when we ran "Shattered Hope" last week and half the group got reduced to being crippled and unconcious from falling down after failing the climb tests (most of you should know the place). Since I didnt want to loose the momentum in the story I decided that after resting a day and there wounds turned out to be less serious then they had thought and they had only last half their wounds.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Jaxicle — GMT

[quote=vinterdraken]I have no issue with killing of my PCs, although I usually try not to actively get them killed, the always do such a good job of that themselves. There are fate points after all and the 40k verse is dark and brutal. I do however sometimes have problems with my players getting maimed or or killed on stupid things when it serves no purpose to the story.[/quote]Well, if we don't care about the story-kills I mentioned earlier (Bubonicus had some rather good points in there), I usually have a little mercy with my players. For example, I usually don't give Righteous Fury to rank-and-file cultists (the cult leaders and the like are equal to PCs in most things, though), but that doesn't mean PCs can't get killed by charging at group of cultists with heavy stubber. If group is too Rambo, throwing them with heavy weapons emplacement (for example few cultists with crank cannon in one end of a plaza behind some sandbags) is a good way to remind them about words like "cover", "pinned" or "tactical advance". Or they can get themselves killed in the process.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Felix — GMT

I occassionally fudge the dice to help my players, but they're usually on their own. That said, I've only had one game where the entire party was wiped, and that was down to plain shitty luck. Even my friendly fudging didn't help. Other than that most of the very few PC death's I've had were in D&D, where resurrections make death not so bad anyway...

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Agmar_Strick — GMT

Historically, my players tend to get pretty attached to their players, our group is heavy on the role light on the roll. So I'm pretty hesitant to kill PC's. Generally only if they have done somthing irretreiveably stupid will I kill someone off. I like the Fate and critical damage system, it allows me to main characters much more easily!

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Guardsman — GMT

I don't give a damn wether the PCs live or die. They do what they do and if they do something what might kill them (like getting involved in a fight) tactics and the dice decide about wether they die or live.

And if they do not like it... I don't think that it is my job as a GM to provide a fun evening. I've already got enough on my hands.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Felix — GMT

[quote=Guardsman]I don't give a damn wether the PCs live or die. They do what they do and if they do something what might kill them (like getting involved in a fight) tactics and the dice decide about wether they die or live.

And if they do not like it... I don't think that it is my job as a GM to provide a fun evening. I've already got enough on my hands.[/quote]

Your job as GM ISN'T to provide a fun evening? Then what is your job? I think I might've misunderstood this roleplaying thing....

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Agmar_Strick — GMT

[quote=Guardsman]
And if they do not like it... I don't think that it is my job as a GM to provide a fun evening. I've already got enough on my hands.[/quote]Yeah, thats lost on me too.

What is a GM's job, if you don't mind, Guardsman?

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Guardsman — GMT

The job of the GM to my mind is to describe the world (including NPCs), it's reactions to the actions of the PCs and to be the judge when it comes to the rules.
The job of the players is to play their PCs.

Fun is just the result of doing your job and since the creation of fun is very subjective it is not a good target. Instead I set for me the target to do my job so that the players can work with my descriptions and decisions.
That does not mean that they have to be happy with the content of my description (if they mess things up they definitely won't be happy about the content) but that they understand what I am saying and get an understanding of what is going on.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Agmar_Strick — GMT

Fair enough, but isn't the GM's responsibility to ensure the content is such that the players enjoy it? eg a player keeps talking up the character's sniper skills, so you construct a mission that necessitates him making a sweet assassination from 2km. Or more generally if the players hate being scared and useless, you don't bombard them with unkillable terrifying monsters.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Felix — GMT

Yes, I was of the impression that the point of any game was to have fun, and the GM AND the players should all work together to facilitate the having of fun for all the involved.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Guardsman — GMT

[quote=Agmar_Strick]
Fair enough, but isn't the GM's responsibility to ensure the content is such that the players enjoy it? eg a player keeps talking up the character's sniper skills, so you construct a mission that necessitates him making a sweet assassination from 2km. Or more generally if the players hate being scared and useless, you don't bombard them with unkillable terrifying monsters.[/quote]

No, I demand from my players that they act independently. I do not construct missions for them. I've got a plot in my mind and adjust it to the actions of the players. The players on the other hand have to use the skills and talents of their characters in a way that they can deal with the situation.

E.g.: The players got some problems with a certain NPC. They could do several things like negotiate with this person or blackmail him. If they decide to assassinate this person... fair enough! I am neutral in this and when they start planning the assassination and the location I just describe the things and they have to deal with that.

And how many players enjoy it that their PCs get the hiding of their lifes, are ripped from limp to limp because their actions caused such a reaction?

@Felix
I already described why I don't set for myself the target to create fun.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Jaxicle — GMT

[quote=Guardsman]No, I demand from my players that they act independently. I do not construct missions for them. I've got a plot in my mind and adjust it to the actions of the players. The players on the other hand have to use the skills and talents of their characters in a way that they can deal with the situation.

E.g.: The players got some problems with a certain NPC. They could do several things like negotiate with this person or blackmail him. If they decide to assassinate this person... fair enough! I am neutral in this and when they start planning the assassination and the location I just describe the things and they have to deal with that.

And how many players enjoy it that their PCs get the hiding of their lifes, are ripped from limb to limb because their actions caused such a reaction? [/quote]I think we all let players have varying levels of independence and make them face consequences of their actions, but I don't think it's enough for GM to only make the setting and some small hooks into it. Instead of only making the target (heretic, cult, daemonic artifact, whatever) and letting the players try to find it I design what the target does, where it is, who knows of the target (and who knows who knows of the target, etc.) and several different routes how the players might get to the target. That way I can point them to right direction if the game is moving too slow and they are out of ideas.

For example, if group has no more ideas how to find the witch and the witch has a bunch of mercenaries protecting himself and keeping unwanted eyes (Inquisition?) out, PCs can overhear a couple of these mercs talking about the witch in a bar. By following or interrogating these mercs the group will get some more pieces of the puzzle and the plot will move on. Of course this may lead to a plot that is like a pipe where group is, making them unable to stray too far from the right direction. The trick is to make that pipe wide enough, because unlike some other games, in DH the acolytes of Holy Ordos can't simply decide "we don't care about this guy anymore, we go to that city and look if there's something interesting there", because that will make them traitors, heretics and prime targets for Inquisition's attention.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Ilias Bethomael — GMT

yeah, i also do it that way.
we have a sniper so if it is not totally unrealistic i create some points in the area i describe which the player (if he conecnetrates and stops reading the rulebook) might identify as a good vantage point for sniping, whilst the guardsman in our group loves to shoot his gun as fast as possible (hellgun, semi-auto ^^) and is very fond of ripping vilains into pieces in close combat. though i keep the plots and scenarios varying and changeing, i try to serve these needs. there also always is some tech-use part for our machine-man, which he CAN use but does NOT HAVE TO
this is simply because i know my players have a certain expectation of what their characters are like and they want possibilites which i have to offer them. i can't do that spontaneously all the time. hence i create some maps and events which i can readily employ if need be.

of course they will die if they act stupid

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Guardsman — GMT

[quote=Jaxicle]I think we all let players have varying levels of independence and make them face consequences of their actions, but I don't think it's enough for GM to only make the setting and some small hooks into it. Instead of only making the target (heretic, cult, daemonic artifact, whatever) and letting the players try to find it I design what the target does, where it is, who knows of the target (and who knows who knows of the target, etc.) and several different routes how the players might get to the target. That way I can point them to right direction if the game is moving too slow and they are out of ideas.[/quote]

No offense but I wasted too much time to plan routes how players might get to the target especially since it is up to them to define the target. Every time I had a whole adventure in mind with solutions and everything the players did something different and surprised me.
And yeah, I plan too who might know what about what and some scenarios as well (like the last time when they wanted to get rid of a hive gang with the back up of a 100 guardsman with chimeras and sentinels. I planned that the gang consists of 250 members well armed and they knew the territory. The players never made some inquiries about the strength of the gang. I thought of what I would do if I were the gang leader and came up with a worst case scenario. The players thought that the gang consists of only 50 members and rushed in... In the end only 20 guardsman made it back alive and it was nearly a miracle that no PC died.)

[quote]
For example, if group has no more ideas how to find the witch and the witch has a bunch of mercenaries protecting himself and keeping unwanted eyes (Inquisition?) out, PCs can overhear a couple of these mercs talking about the witch in a bar. By following or interrogating these mercs the group will get some more pieces of the puzzle and the plot will move on. Of course this may lead to a plot that is like a pipe where group is, making them unable to stray too far from the right direction. The trick is to make that pipe wide enough, because unlike some other games, in DH the acolytes of Holy Ordos can't simply decide "we don't care about this guy anymore, we go to that city and look if there's something interesting there", because that will make them traitors, heretics and prime targets for Inquisition's attention.[/quote]

And that is what I do not like. If the players suddenly decide that their PCs are become heretics or that they want to run away from the Inquisition I would be in trouble. But that way I just have to adjust the plans of the involved parties.

The important thing is not to hinder them or encourange them but to stay neutral.

But yeah! I am lazy.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Jaxicle — GMT

[quote=Guardsman]No offense but I wasted too much time to plan routes how players might get to the target especially since it is up to them to define the target. Every time I had a whole adventure in mind with solutions and everything the players did something different and surprised me.[/quote]I have heard that "No story will ever survive an encounter with players". Therefore, I design some most likely routes the players will take, how to connect these routes if necessary and how to subtly steer their direction more towards my designs if players start to stray too far. I, too, never manage to run my story exactly like I designed it, but I often end up close enough so that in longer plots I don't need to throw all my future plans away after the session.

[quote]And that is what I do not like. If the players suddenly decide that their PCs are become heretics or that they want to run away from the Inquisition I would be in trouble. But that way I just have to adjust the plans of the involved parties.

The important thing is not to hinder them or encourange them but to stay neutral.[/quote]Well, players won't often go heretic and try to outrun the Inquisition, because they have seen themselves how powerful the inquisitors are and they haven't (yet) even small part of the power to fight back all those assassins, guardsmen, arbitrators and adeptus sororitas they will face if they turn traitor. Of course, in my games the players also have a lot of equipment acquired trough Inquisition, mostly weapons and armor, so they will have hard time to make sure there aren't tracking devices or traps like explosive collars hidden in their equipment.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

DocIII — GMT

I often find that I am a little overly nice as a GM and let my players sometimes survive things they shouldn't. I'm working on toughening up on that.

In about 15-20 years of running games only 3 instances of total party kills come to mind. 1 bad luck combined w/ insane pc doing insane things, 1 mix of bad luck and no tactics, and 1 sheer stupidity. These were in 3 different RPGs (Deadlands:Hell on Earth, WHFRP, and Recon respectively).

Even as soft as I usually am on players even I couldn't let slide the sheer idocity in the Recon game. For those of you who've never heard of it Recon is a Vietnam War rpg.

So we have a group of players and GM (who were grantedly at the time high school kids w/ no military experience among them, but still) going through a scenario where the players are way out from their own base sneaking around in the jungle searching for POWs.

They're sneaking in the jungle parallel to a major trail (so they won't get ambushed) and stumble into a semi-concealed NVA Machine gun tower. Now being the overly nice GM I am, i just decided that the guys in the MG nest were taking a smoke break and didn't notice the PC's w/o even making a roll.

So now that they found a MG tower in the jungle, do they decide to scout around a little and see what the situation is? (and thereby maybe finding the other MG tower hidden in the trees on the oposite side of the trail or the camouflaged encampment where the POW's were being held just over the hill) Of Course Not! Instead these geniuses decided it would be a good idea to start hacking at the bamboo posts of the MG tower with their machetes.

Now they were (just barely) bright enough to figure that if they stood under the platform they could avoid having the MG pointed at them, but being huddled so tight they were a perfect target to be mowed down by the MG gunner on the opposite tower when he looked to see what all the chopping noises were about. Add to that the two guys in the MG nest the PC's were chopping on opening the trap door and firing their AK-47s into the tops of the characters' heads and you have six very dumb, very dead PC's.

I just hope that, by the Emperor's grace, my Dark Heresy acolytes are a little brighter or at least will be a little more careful.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Seru1 — GMT

Pretty willing because there's alot of alchohol and the players random roll there characters. We're doing a demo right now..probably less willing if we make it an actual game. But I'll do it if they just screw up.

How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Alasseo — GMT

Don't worry about it too much: nothing teaches like Darwin

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Guardsman — GMT

[quote=Jaxicle]I have heard that "No story will ever survive an encounter with players". Therefore, I design some most likely routes the players will take, how to connect these routes if necessary and how to subtly steer their direction more towards my designs if players start to stray too far. I, too, never manage to run my story exactly like I designed it, but I often end up close enough so that in longer plots I don't need to throw all my future plans away after the session.[/quote]

Everybody should do it the way which is suited best for him or her. I only make some preparations but I don't write much and that's it. In the end I just adjust the plot again and again and again and that's quite fun for me. Somehow it is some kind of talent that I don't need the stuff well prepared and can make the game on the run.

[quote]Well, players won't often go heretic and try to outrun the Inquisition, because they have seen themselves how powerful the inquisitors are and they haven't (yet) even small part of the power to fight back all those assassins, guardsmen, arbitrators and adeptus sororitas they will face if they turn traitor. [/quote]

The Inquisition is not allmighty. Millions of mutants and other heretics running around causing mischief prove that. And right now my players are in a game where they go against another Inquisitor (although they still don't know it). If they ever decide to run away I will let them have their chance. It only depends on how they do it.

[quote]
Of course, in my games the players also have a lot of equipment acquired trough Inquisition, mostly weapons and armor, so they will have hard time to make sure there aren't tracking devices or traps like explosive collars hidden in their equipment.[/quote]

Not in my game! They've got their equipment and they are buying their weapons or aquiring them on the run.

How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

NeoSamurai — GMT

I try not to kill the PCs too often. However, if it happens it happens. I prefer horribly maiming them beyond recognition

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Locutor — GMT

I, on the other hand, kill pc's every time I sneeze....

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Ilias Bethomael — GMT

[quote=Locutor]I, on the other hand, kill pc's every time I sneeze....[/quote]

no big deal as long as you are of good health

maiming them is fun.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

girbrtoher2 — GMT

I want to keep em alive, I have spent a long time on the plot, but if they piss me off, hehehehe, spontaneous daemonic incursion, completely dedicated to castrating their PC.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Golub — GMT

My PCs were on a ship boarded by dark eldar. They had whole crew on their beck and call (the ship was very small and the captain was dead) and they went to investigate loud clanging noise and loss of comm with some decks all by themselves.

They were really lucky and managed to survive without much FP spending.

They all complained that I am too harsh on them.

The thing is, this is not D&D and I do not design encounters to match my PC's "level". If it is logical that there would be that many enemies that use that kind of tactics and equipment, I am not going to make them any weaker (or stronger). I prefer realism over game balance.

But, I always give them a chance, they just have to learn that they cannot fight everything. If enemies are too strong to face head on, there is always a way to triumph without charging and getting slaughtered.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

DocIII — GMT

Tell them you're trying to teach them value of "strategic withdrawal"

That has a much more positive ring to it than "Learn when to run away, idiots!"

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

NeoSamurai — GMT

[quote=DocIII]Tell them you're trying to teach them value of "strategic withdrawal"

That has a much more positive ring to it than "Learn when to run away, idiots!"[/quote]

I have had to teach too many vet players the importance of running away to fight another day it ain't even funny.

Retreat is not a bad option when you're out numbered--especially when you can return with bolter weapons and powerarmor and a contingent of Imp Guards behind you

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Arioch — GMT

I do not have to try and kill my players. They manage that all on their own. Some examples so far;

> Choosing to shoot the controls to the Teleportarium platform which was the only way of the planet with no oxygen, and all they have is what is on their suits, just because the player got annoyed at trying to figure out how the thing worked.

> Carrying around; 1 Heavy Stubber, 1 Bolt Pistol, 1 Autogun, 5 Frag grenades, glad in guardsmans flak armour, two ammunition belts wrapped around his body, walks into a bar where a hiver gang hangs out, and punch their lookout in the face...

> Psyker refusing to go down and accept result continue to use Healing minor power on himself.

> Sneaking around in the underhive tunnels, they smell prometeum fuel vapours. About 5 minutes later one of the players spots a large spider above them in the tunnel, and panic firing his one shot flamer straight up. BOOM!

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Jaxicle — GMT

[quote=Arioch]I do not have to try and kill my players. They manage that all on their own. Some examples so far;

> Choosing to shoot the controls to the Teleportarium platform which was the only way of the planet with no oxygen, and all they have is what is on their suits, just because the player got annoyed at trying to figure out how the thing worked.[/quote]And of course you told them it was their door out before they shot the thing apart? Or at least allowed intelligence test to realise this before the thing went bang?
[quote]> Carrying around; 1 Heavy Stubber, 1 Bolt Pistol, 1 Autogun, 5 Frag grenades, clad in guardsmans flak armour, two ammunition belts wrapped around his body, walks into a bar where a hiver gang hangs out, and punch their lookout in the face...[/quote]Good old habit of picking a fight you can't win. I've seen plenty of these, both IRL and in RPGs. To be honest, I've even killed few my own characters this way, though not as openly as your guy.
[quote]> Psyker refusing to go down and accept result continue to use Healing minor power on himself.[/quote] Too bad that power doesn't cure stupidity, though that painful backfire can help. But to repeatedly do the same mistake in rather a short time, that takes some real effort. There is considerable similarity between this and the "an IG armory walks into a bar full of gangsters and punches the lookout"-episode above. Same player, perhaps?
[quote]> Sneaking around in the underhive tunnels, they smell prometeum fuel vapours. About 5 minutes later one of the players spots a large spider above them in the tunnel, and panic firing his one shot flamer straight up. BOOM!
[/quote]I would have allowed intelligence test with +10 or +20 to realise the mistake before blowing up the tunnels. I mean, they have a flamer, they know the stuff in it's fuel-tank is flammable and they can smell the same stuff in the air around them. It's like a guy throwing a molotov to the ground while standing in puddle of gasoline. By the way, I remember reading that prometeum gets ablaze when contacted with air, so those vapours sound a bit weird.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Arioch — GMT

[b]Jaxicle[/b]: Believe me, they knew what they were doing. They knew fully well that the teleportarium platform was the only way to get back to their ship. And I constantly mentioned the smell of the prometium fuel vapours.

And it was not the same player that played the two characters. They just both tend to do things like that.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Jaxicle — GMT

Well, if they were perfectly aware of what they were doing and what were the consequences, they deserved to die. Doing things like that don't count as deaths caused by stupidity, they count as suicides. Still, I can't see why a group would commit mass-suicide...

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

brown36 — GMT

A slightly different point of view, in our game the GM seems very reluctant to kill/maim us! Now i don't mind rolling about with my mono sword dispatching the emperors justice left right and center but i'd like to at least find it a challenge.

In our five sessions to date my Assassin character hasn't taken a single wound! Not because i am some tactical genius or even very lucky, i get the impression he'd rather be nice to us than cause our characters any real harm.

So I say that the 40k universe is full of mutants, heretics, witches, corruption, bad guys and most of all guns! At best acolytes will stem the tide of darkness for a short while. Regardless of wether your players make stupid choices/ are unlucky at least make your setting full of the inherant danger of the larger universe and NEVER be afraid to kill a PC.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Xisor — GMT

For me it depends on familiarity with the setting. If they know that four 5th level characters seriously aren't a match for two Dire Avengers, then fair enough, they'll hopefully run off and that'll be that (thinking their way out of it makes me lenient!). But if they perpetually do silly things in spite of their knowledge, then it'd be the fair result that they die.

On the otherhand, if they've no idea what a Warboss is and no idea who the Deciever is, then I think I'd be a bit lenient (or a bit illustrative...).

Basically, it depends on how willing they are to have their characters killed off. Killing them off senselessly is one thing, killing them off with purpose, plot defence and simply saying "Well, look at the situation, someone was highly likely to die...", that's fair enough.

I don't think I've enough (or little enough) moral fibre to simply kill off people because they're annoying me.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Konrad von Richtmark — GMT

I'm neither "willing" nor "unwilling" to kill my PCs. I provide them the setting, and make the setting react to them as is realistic and appropriate. Whether they die or not depends on how well they play, and a bit on how lucky they are.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

damnitsham — GMT

I have given due warning to my PCs pre game that the 40k universe is harsh and you can die from a particularly (un)fortunate round of fire from gribblies if you make yourself a target. However, on that note, I believe it is important to reward creative gaming from the PCs, so if they go about a confrontation in a well constructed and cinematic manner then I will happily skew the battle in their favor, dice rolls willing. In fact, the combat system does this quite well, with aiming, surprising, hiding, etc. greatly enhancing your chances of surviving by a) killing the gribblies and b) not getting killed by the gribblies.

I've also got 2c to contribute in regards to Guardsman's statement about tailoring the mission for the group: Personally, I think that spotlight moments are a great way to enhance the enjoyment of players, and reinforce just why they are using that character in the first place. In the case of the sniper, give them that situation where they are the parties only hope at stopping that fellow escaping in a shuttle, or the best chance at neutralizing a distant threat. Give the techpriest an opportunity to sabotage a generator, or wire a cogitator to gain info.
But don't pin these situations to a particular location or time, as inevitably the party will be on the opposite side of the hive when you decide that the event will occur. Have them as little tidbits that can be thrown in at any time just to liven up the plotline and make the acolytes indispensable.

But more importantly, I'm all for killing off characters when they get into 'killable' situations. Fate points are there to save the PCs, not me

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Jaxicle — GMT

[quote=damnitsham]I have given due warning to my PCs pre game that the 40k universe is harsh and you can die from a particularly (un)fortunate round of fire from gribblies if you make yourself a target. However, on that note, I believe it is important to reward creative gaming from the PCs, so if they go about a confrontation in a well constructed and cinematic manner then I will happily skew the battle in their favor, dice rolls willing. In fact, the combat system does this quite well, with aiming, surprising, hiding, etc. greatly enhancing your chances of surviving by a) killing the gribblies and b) not getting killed by the gribblies.[/quote]You're right, using simple advantages like cover (even waist-high wall of sandbags, because for some reason left leg takes the most hits in my games) can seriously help the survival rate of players. Of course this may lead to some rather interesting choices (when my players were attacking cult hideout in low-hive sewers, one of them took crank cannon and rest of them took sandbags so that they could make gun-emplacement if needed) but most of those weird ideas a) work and b) are completely within the rules.

[quote]I've also got 2c to contribute in regards to Guardsman's statement about tailoring the mission for the group: Personally, I think that spotlight moments are a great way to enhance the enjoyment of players, and reinforce just why they are using that character in the first place. In the case of the sniper, give them that situation where they are the parties only hope at stopping that fellow escaping in a shuttle, or the best chance at neutralizing a distant threat. Give the techpriest an opportunity to sabotage a generator, or wire a cogitator to gain info.
But don't pin these situations to a particular location or time, as inevitably the party will be on the opposite side of the hive when you decide that the event will occur. Have them as little tidbits that can be thrown in at any time just to liven up the plotline and make the acolytes indispensable.[/quote]I think I said this earlier, but I also make these "now is your time to shine"-moments into my game. For example, if there is a sniper in the group, I let him choose a good shooting position (maybe some concealment-rolls here and there) before the rest of the group runs in guns blazing, because if he has no time to prepare the fight is over before he gets to the position.

[quote]But more importantly, I'm all for killing off characters when they get into 'killable' situations. Fate points are there to save the PCs, not me [/quote]One of my players was rather suprised to find out the fate points don't come back. He had been thinking "oh I can do that too, and with fate points I get out with not even a slap to the wrist", but when he asked how often they came back his character suddenly grew up instict to protect himself.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Fnord — GMT

I never force my players into combat. If they fight, it's their own fault, and therfore they will have to deal with it.

During the first "real" combat that my players decided to get into (they ambushed 2 lone cultists earlyer on), one of the characters got down to critical, and the other (a guardsman, with 14 wounds) got down to two wounds. The players survived because the guardsman was lucky with his die rolls. When combat starts, i wont save the players from the dice.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Konrad von Richtmark — GMT

Indeed. If there is one thing I don't do, it would be to save the players from the dice. Hey, it's war, people die, you know! . They don't gain any inalienable "right to survive" by being able to make a case for having played rationally.

I never fudge die rolls anymore, and roll my dice openly to avoid the temptation to.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Kage2020 — GMT

I will always make a decision on this subject based upon the [i]narrative[/i]. If it produces a more interesting story then player characters will die...

It's not about "narrative armouring" of the PCs, though, just as it is not about arbitrarily killing them through a random dice roll. At least not for me.

[b]Kage[/b]

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Jaxicle — GMT

[quote=Konrad von Richtmark]Indeed. If there is one thing I don't do, it would be to save the players from the dice. Hey, it's war, people die, you know! . They don't gain any inalienable "right to survive" by being able to make a case for having played rationally.

I never fudge die rolls anymore, and roll my dice openly to avoid the temptation to.[/quote]Well, if the groups get to combat, only thing I do to help them is that I don't give righteous fury to enemies. 12-14 damage from one hit (no ST carapace for my players so far) is much enough for most of the players. Also, lack of fury gives the enemies enough damage to hurt (some lucky bastards may even have frag grenades) but it helps to avoid unnecessary player deaths, because my games are rather combat-heavy and getting 2-4 new recruits into the group in each case is not what I want (yes, I make the players start with rank 1 rookies if they get their guys killed, with some additional experience).

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Konrad von Richtmark — GMT

Well, 12-14 damage from one hit shouldn't kill anyone. In normal circumstances, you'd have to suffer -7 critical damage to die. No way a starting character at full wounds would go down to that from one such hit.

Our group likes it lethal. We've not got to actually play DH yet, but our experiences from WFRP are very much that making combat more lethal for everyone (for example, by halving everyone's wounds) adds to the game. It makes getting first strike on your enemies (by whatever tactical ploys) vital to success. It makes it possible to take down enemies by sniping. It actually makes it possible to keep people at bay by pointing ranged weapons at them.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Jaxicle — GMT

[quote=Konrad von Richtmark]Well, 12-14 damage from one hit shouldn't kill anyone. In normal circumstances, you'd have to suffer -7 critical damage to die. No way a starting character at full wounds would go down to that from one such hit.

Our group likes it lethal. We've not got to actually play DH yet, but our experiences from WFRP are very much that making combat more lethal for everyone (for example, by halving everyone's wounds) adds to the game. It makes getting first strike on your enemies (by whatever tactical ploys) vital to success. It makes it possible to take down enemies by sniping. It actually makes it possible to keep people at bay by pointing ranged weapons at them.[/quote]I prefer crippling my players over killing them. Losing one's arm hurts, but you don't need to get new character up to the speed of story, because instead of fresh recruit you have old fart learning to use bolt pistol instead of bolt gun. Of course the servants of Inquisition may get bionic replacements, but it often takes a lot of money from the group or the crippled character has to really shine for some time to get the Inquisitor pay the spare parts. Also, it's much more satisfying to have one-armed Veteran than yet another Conscript.

Maybe I should lower the Wounds-stat of the characters, but balance this by making the Critical tables longer. For example, I could take 3 wounds away but make the criticals go 1-2, 3-4, 5-6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 instead of the old 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. There are 10 steps in each, so all I'd need to change would be the numbers in "critical damage" of critical tables.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

mAd eAgle — GMT

A 'player' comes to the table and EXPECTS to have their character to be tested. My question is;

How creative are the GM's when their players are SORE about why they died?

He He...

My GOD, this game is CTHULHU times a million!!!!

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

We Gotta Go! — GMT

I'm somewhat hesitant, as one of my players gets really attached to their characters and the rest do roleplay well and enjoy their characters. I've fudged one or two die rolls, just slightly in their favour. I did however MASSIVELY fudge an encounter because they were plain stupid but it was their first session and many of them were still in the "Kick down the door, slay the monster, take the loot" D&D mode. It was the SPOILER [color=white]encounter at the end of Maggots in the Meat in the skymill, they blazed in and tried to take on everyone there. They were bound to be killed but I made it so that they just slipped out of it alive. [/color] SPOILER Aside from that , many of their encounters come as challenging yet not fearfully close to death. It's been getting closer, though.

Last session I got to use the critical damage tables on a player for the first time in a while. I forgot how much I enjoy them, so I think there may be more deadly fights happening soon.

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Code13 — GMT

In the words of James T Kirk

"Let Them Dieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee"

Re:How willing are you to Kill your PC's?

Konrad von Richtmark — GMT

[quote=mAd eAgle]How creative are the GM's when their players are SORE about why they died?[/quote]

Hasn't happened to me, my groups pretty much expect character fatalities to happen. They've come to see it as a chance to get to try out something new. If a player expects me to artificially keep his character alive just because he is too fond of it to let it go, that player doesn't belong in my group.

I've actually had the inverse problem once: One of the players in a WFRP campaign I ran suffers from chronic ADHD. Meaning, he quickly loses patience with characters when they don't work as expected, or simply fail at what they try to do. At one point when his character lost a fate point (walked alone on a forest road, crappy perception further reduced by wearing a helmet, got ambushed by several beastmen that were scripted into the adventure), he got fed up with his character and wanted to roll a new one. I had to stare him down by wondering aloud just how he intended to integrate a new character into the story at the time.