3rd Edition

There has been a lot of discussion upon what tweaks people would make to second edition, but now that the game has changed Publishers it is possible that the game may get a much more thorough overhaul.

So FFG hires you to write a new 3rd edition 252 page core book - What do you put in it?

A litany about 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4.1th and so on editions...

I would prefer a rules system which is not obsolete every 3 years or so (as with WFB or D&D).
The next thing we would get is a Bestiary v3, a Sigmar's Heirs v3, and so on.
Sounds more like a cash-cow than a necessity to me...

The few rules who need revision can be done in a Companion or similar book.

Ron.

I think You sort of missed the point Ron. I think the intention of Jadrax was to ask You what You would put in a new Core Book. Not only rule wise...

A very difficult question, since I too would far prefer a version "2.1" which mainly concerns itself with improving rules language that today generate most of the frequently asked questions!

The only major rules issue that might require a brand new edition to solve completely (a bit like how fighter-wizard multiclassing remained fundamentally unsolved throughout D&D 3E) I can think of straight away is the Swift Attack issue, where characters lose tactical flexibility once they get Attacks 2+ (because the option of making a second attack, not to speak of a third, is generally so much more attractive than taking an Aim, Move, Feint, or Maneuver).

As in this role-play scenario I am clearly the Director of FFG I appreciate Ron's honesty and integrity in this matter - He has of course now been sacked however and I look forward to the ideas of the next volunteer to write the core book. ;o)

When I think about it, perhaps better support for extreme characteristics scores, enabling Giants and Dragons to have much higher Strength scores than even the strongest player character without instakilling their human-sized opponents in combat.

Do I?

I have to say, I hate 'all new' 'better' 'reworked' editions. That normally means: 'hey, we fucked up our initial printrun, but lots of people bought it anyway, so let's go for a new printrun - probably they'll buy that too!'. And so it is...

Ok, I admit, you are right. What jadrax probably meant, is 'what rules do you miss in the rules published so far' - is it that?

Well, what I miss, apart from some regional / racial descriptions, are official rules for
- Mounted Combat
- Sea Combat and Ships in general.
As well as better maps. And I would change the Insanities - can't get warm with them. I still use the 1st Edition Tables for that.

Ron.

RonaldN wrote:Ok, I admit, you are right. What jadrax probably meant, is 'what rules do you miss in the rules published so far' - is it that?

Even more than that, really. Look at the difference between AD&D and D20 - you can really go wild if you want. Would you change the stat blocks, magic systems, career systems, combat, economy, healing system, focus on chaos.... let yourself go wild with your own "Perfect" rules set.

RonaldN wrote:
Well, what I miss, apart from some regional / racial descriptions, are official rules for
- Mounted Combat
- Sea Combat and Ships in general.
As well as better maps. And I would change the Insanities - can't get warm with them. I still use the 1st Edition Tables for that.

If we leave the area of improvements I'm convinced would make for a better game in general, and are moving over to personal preferences, it's time for me to add my hope a 3rd edition will bring non-adventuring non-warrior-miracle-workers as the default kind of priest, with the current kind of "fantasy priest" as the exception, normally reserved for PCs and VIP NPCs.

Why does it always have to be about rules... Boo-Hoo :`( And what about the fluff?

Vlkodlak wrote:And what about the fluff?

I think you have to take it as read that you have to work with in the confines of GW's Iron Clad Grasp upon the Background, although if people want to speculate on fluff I don't see why not.

After all, as far as I am aware all Priests presented by GW are spell casters, so Zapp's rules suggestion above could well not get past the GW fluff censor.

I've have no problems with the rules as they are now. I'd rather see some clearing up of the supplements

For one thing I'd like SH and the Companion combined into a complete players guide, prefereably around Â£25

You've some bits that should be in the Core book (star signs) along with a good mix of sample areas and backgrounds

Well, we won't be able to create a 'perfect' rules system.
Probably you can do that for yourself (if you have the skills - which I lack), but everyone else will find something to dislike.

Reading capnzap's post, I would say, he is a GM who puts great emphasis on the background because of his wish of 'worldly' careers - I would second that!

And to jadrax: I wouldn't change the stats, or any other vital thing in the system. The trick would be to keep new rules compatible to the old ones. Revising the Swift Attack rule is no problem; but changing the profile is. I still have to do maths when I use 1st Edition NPCs or background (ok, that's not so bad, but still annoying).

Ron.

@Artaxerxes

Indeed. That`s the thing that I`m whining about. I would love to see a bigger chapter describing the world, as in the first edition. So You can actually run Your campaigns based only on the Core Book.

P.S. Nice Avatar, Art.

Prices, Bartering and Encumbrance.

Chapter V is a travesty

Edit: Oh, and why a 252p book? Dark Heresy got a beautiful 400+ page piece of art. The Guide to life in the Imperium and the Calixis sector are superb! Imagine the WFRP book expanded to the same level, with guides to life in villages, towns and major cities of the Empire, beef up info on the different races, as well as a little atlas of maps

Well, Jadrax beat me to it!

This was going to be the next topic I was about to post...

For me, the watchwords going forward for any new Warhammer content are the same ABCs of good writing that have been drilled into me since journalism and English lit classes in college:

Accuracy, Brevity, Clarity

Accuracy - Rules need to be ironclad. Keeping the Queen's English is essential to keeping an accurate feel for the Warhammer flavor. Page references need to be 100% accurate. Examples need to be in the right places in the right format. The other big keyword for this would be consistency -- they go hand in hand.

Brevity - I break this rule more than most when I'm writing. Be concise. Be clear. Use simple language. Break up long sentences. Make the text digestable. As my professor once said "Do what you have to do then get the hell out of there." Keep core rules, descriptions and mechanics simple, clear and brief. Go into greater detail in advanced options or supporting material.

Clarity - Make sure rules and information are presented in clear, easy to read language. Make sure charts and tables are clearly labeled, placed in logical space on the pages, and referenced in a master index. Limit the various interpretations for vaguely worded rules. Yes, I know much of Warhammer is written to reinforce the concept that the Gamemaster is the ultimate authority. And that's fine. But saying "it's left up to the GM's discretion" is not a strong design.

- reintroduce random starting skills (ala v1) so it's possible to have Bounty Hunters who can sing and Charcoal Burners who've somehow learned to read in their spare time. Perhaps make it a combined Skills/Talents table.
- add another few pages to the skills section and beef up the skill descriptions, along with better DoS/DoF, autosuccess and re-roll guidelines.
- get rid of the +5/+10 Talent bonuses and make all Talents effect-based (except for innate Talents like Very Strong etc. which are WFRP traditions and shouldn't be purchasable with XP).
- Remove the geography-specific Fel Talents and bring back Wit, Seduction etc. as Talents.
- make the "doubles = fumble" rule official for non-combat
- tweak the weapon effects
- get rid of Parrying Stance and link parries to Attacks again.
- revise Fear, Terror and Insanity
- add corruption mechanics
- fix prices and encumbrance
- add rules for mounted combat, naval combat and abstract mass combat.
- add prayer rules for non-priest characters.
- increase the penalty for spellcasting, especially healing magic. Tzeentch's Curse isn't dangerous enough.
- create themed Hedge Magic "schools" to cover Elementalism etc. in the corebook, with detailed rules provided in a supplement.
- expand the background section slightly
- add a few more monsters
- drop the intro adventure (hey, something has to go if the book is to remain the same size)
- reduce the font size very slightly (see above)

Oh, I would also go back to a more "old school" look and feel for art. Artwork helps convey the setting, feeling and zeitgeist of the material, and I wasn't as pleased with many of the impressionist style art pieces used in the 2e books. In fact, the cover art for the core book is, in my mind, one of the weakest covers in the series. Tome of Corruption and Tome of Salvation cover art was much more in line with what I'd look for.

Examples of the new style of art I was not fond of from the core book can be found on:
Pages 4, 12, 17 (what I consider the "impressionist" style)
Pages 90, 128, 138 (what I'd consider a comic-book style),

ynnen: looking at your sig and location, have you considered applying for The Job?

Vlkodlak wrote:@Artaxerxes

Indeed. That`s the thing that I`m whining about. I would love to see a bigger chapter describing the world, as in the first edition. So You can actually run Your campaigns based only on the Core Book.

P.S. Nice Avatar, Art.

Ta

Perhaps one other thing they could do if they ever chose to do this is basically just drop the awful "guide to..." section from the book and expand on the Careers section a little more, some ideas - drop the default magic using priests and replace with one from ToS and do a short section on alternate characters immediately after the careers section (or in appendix in back of book)

Some clearer rules on how to advance, my take was it was fine to go immediately from a starting career, onto the next and then leave that for an advanced career without having to take all of the skills to "complete" the middle career, this is something I've seen people refer to a lot about why DH is better than WFRP, because "all X are the same, DH allows some flexibility in characters"

Prices and Encumbrance. But I really would like there not to be a new edition for at least 6 years or so, and instead more sourcebooks!

Oh, I'd also check to see if GW has any big ideas in store for the timeline/timeframe...

2E is set during the reign of Karl-Franz, with the Empire united through common cause to rally against Archaon and the insurgent marauders from the Chaos Wastes. I believe the actual year is 2552 for the core rulebook timeline setting.

1st Edition was set about 50 years earlier, where more incursions of chaos start to leak in from the northlands, Magnus the Pious is still lauded for his exploits, and Karl Franz has yet to ascend to the throne of Emperor -- year 2500.

As such, I wonder if 3E would fast forward the timeline... if GW has other epic, massive changes to the story or history of Warhammer that would need to be factored in...

ynnen wrote:Well, Jadrax beat me to it!

This was going to be the next topic I was about to post...

For me, the watchwords going forward for any new Warhammer content are the same ABCs of good writing that have been drilled into me since journalism and English lit classes in college:

Accuracy, Brevity, Clarity

Accuracy - Rules need to be ironclad. Keeping the Queen's English is essential to keeping an accurate feel for the Warhammer flavor. Page references need to be 100% accurate. Examples need to be in the right places in the right format. The other big keyword for this would be consistency -- they go hand in hand.

Brevity - I break this rule more than most when I'm writing. Be concise. Be clear. Use simple language. Break up long sentences. Make the text digestable. As my professor once said "Do what you have to do then get the hell out of there." Keep core rules, descriptions and mechanics simple, clear and brief. Go into greater detail in advanced options or supporting material.

Clarity - Make sure rules and information are presented in clear, easy to read language. Make sure charts and tables are clearly labeled, placed in logical space on the pages, and referenced in a master index. Limit the various interpretations for vaguely worded rules. Yes, I know much of Warhammer is written to reinforce the concept that the Gamemaster is the ultimate authority. And that's fine. But saying "it's left up to the GM's discretion" is not a strong design.

Quoted For Truth!

The best textbook I've read was (perhaps surprisingly) an astronomy one. Best as in most friendly and pedagogical, that is.

I believe that a new edition of WFRP could set a new standard for friendly roleplaying rules by not merely trying to surpass other rpgs (which, sadly, is easily done, considering the notoriously un-pedagogical excluding nerd-amateur origins of our hobby) but taking its learning and reference roles seriously.

Zapp

PS. The textbook in question was "Astronomy, the Evolving Universe", seventh edition, Wiley, by Michael Zeilik. But that's just an example - I'm sure you have your own favourites.

Herr Arnulfe wrote:- reintroduce random starting skills (ala v1) so it's possible to have Bounty Hunters who can sing and Charcoal Burners who've somehow learned to read in their spare time. Perhaps make it a combined Skills/Talents table.
- add another few pages to the skills section and beef up the skill descriptions, along with better DoS/DoF, autosuccess and re-roll guidelines.
- get rid of the +5/+10 Talent bonuses and make all Talents effect-based (except for innate Talents like Very Strong etc. which are WFRP traditions and shouldn't be purchasable with XP).
- Remove the geography-specific Fel Talents and bring back Wit, Seduction etc. as Talents.
- make the "doubles = fumble" rule official for non-combat
- tweak the weapon effects
- get rid of Parrying Stance and link parries to Attacks again.
- revise Fear, Terror and Insanity
- add corruption mechanics
- fix prices and encumbrance
- add rules for mounted combat, naval combat and abstract mass combat.
- add prayer rules for non-priest characters.
- increase the penalty for spellcasting, especially healing magic. Tzeentch's Curse isn't dangerous enough.
- create themed Hedge Magic "schools" to cover Elementalism etc. in the corebook, with detailed rules provided in a supplement.
- expand the background section slightly
- add a few more monsters
- drop the intro adventure (hey, something has to go if the book is to remain the same size)
- reduce the font size very slightly (see above)

Wow, I utterly disagree with all but two of these!

jadrax wrote:Wow, I utterly disagree with all but two of these!

I guess it's a good thing I'm not applying for The Real Job then!

Does this mean I'm fired?