Cost of Charasteristics

Zearoth Kilrathle wrote:Yes, same thing for the Adept investing into Medicae... Master Chirurgion but no Medicae +20, in fact, only Psykers seem to get that.

On that same note, Tech Priests don't get Common Lore Tech +20 or Talented, Go fig. I guess that's what Elite Advances are for.

Priad wrote:

Zearoth Kilrathle wrote:Yes, same thing for the Adept investing into Medicae... Master Chirurgion but no Medicae +20, in fact, only Psykers seem to get that.

On that same note, Tech Priests don't get Common Lore Tech +20 or Talented, Go fig. I guess that's what Elite Advances are for.

Might as well add that guardsman don't get Arms Master..nor any shooting (like dead eye shot, or that one that adds +2 damage to ranged attack

Granted, deadeye shot and such are available for the sniper line, but..that's a bit too late for any good sue (since the assasin and metalican gunslinger got it rom the frist 1-4 ranks)

But no Arms master for the combat specialist?..Odd..but dept gets it..go figure..'guess reading is good after all huh?

Braddoc wrote:

Priad wrote:

Zearoth Kilrathle wrote:Yes, same thing for the Adept investing into Medicae... Master Chirurgion but no Medicae +20, in fact, only Psykers seem to get that.

On that same note, Tech Priests don't get Common Lore Tech +20 or Talented, Go fig. I guess that's what Elite Advances are for.

Might as well add that guardsman don't get Arms Master..nor any shooting (like dead eye shot, or that one that adds +2 damage to ranged attack

Granted, deadeye shot and such are available for the sniper line, but..that's a bit too late for any good sue (since the assasin and metalican gunslinger got it rom the frist 1-4 ranks)

But no Arms master for the combat specialist?..Odd..but dept gets it..go figure..'guess reading is good after all huh?

I believe this is because the Guardsman must have exposure to a wide range of weapons (ranged and melee), whereas the Assassin should be specialized in that they deal with one (or two) weapons and use them to their highest possible effect.

To put it in real world perspective, as an ex-infantry (AIRBORNE!!) soldier, I was skilled in the use of handguns, semi-auto rifles, fully auto machine guns, some anti-tank rocket-propelled grenades, TOW systems, some exposure to indirect-fire artillery (mortars), anti-personnel devices (claymore mines) and hand-to-hand combat. I trained in their use and was proficient in them, but I can't call myself a sniper as I never had the months of training under the belt. I was trained to act as part of a team (squad) and to be able to effectively put down suppressive fire to allow my team mates to move into a position as safely as possible to eliminate the threat.

Assassins (and snipers) are trained to use their one weapon to effectively insert themselves behind enemy lines, eliminate one target and effectively remove themselves from enemy-held territory.

What I'm trying to say would be: "Know your Role".

And I have no idea why Adepts don't get Medicae +20, although I would allow it as an elite advance if my adept in the party wanted to pick it up....

Know your role? Sounds like dirty D&D 4E crap to me. Nothing I have seen suggests that Assassins are expected to be a one-weapon specialist. From their possible advances, it seems that they are trained to use a variety of weapons.

Hot Hands wrote:Know your role? Sounds like dirty D&D 4E crap to me. Nothing I have seen suggests that Assassins are expected to be a one-weapon specialist. From their possible advances, it seems that they are trained to use a variety of weapons.

Do what you want with your game dude. I can at least provide some real-life corollaries as to why Assassins are a certain way. And I don't have to resort to juvenile game-bashing to do so either. Grats.

Braddoc wrote:
Might as well add that guardsman don't get Arms Master..nor any shooting (like dead eye shot, or that one that adds +2 damage to ranged attack

Granted, deadeye shot and such are available for the sniper line, but..that's a bit too late for any good sue (since the assasin and metalican gunslinger got it rom the frist 1-4 ranks)

But no Arms master for the combat specialist?..Odd..but dept gets it..go figure..'guess reading is good after all huh?

Psykers can get Dead Eye Shot, Crack Shot, Hip Shooter, Dual Weapon Wielder - Balistic, Melee at rank 5, so if guardsman don't get comprable talents at such a rank I agree that's more than a little off kilter. 'Know Your Roll' ... O.K your a psyker, you utilise the imaterium to bend the laws of reality and warp the tenious rules which govern the universe. Oh yeah, your also kinda like a junior gunslinger.

Do what you want with your game dude. I can at least provide some real-life corollaries as to why Assassins are a certain way.

But you didn't. How many assassins do you know IRL? Doubtful that the answer is even one.

And I don't have to resort to juvenile game-bashing to do so either. Grats.

I'm not trying to be offensive to anyone, but I strongly dislike the idea that a character has to fit a cookie-cutter role based on a title, class, career path, etc. I'd also suggest you stop taking offense so easily - if I want you to be offended, I'll make sure it's direct and personal because I'm not a very subtle guy.

Hot Hands wrote:

Do what you want with your game dude. I can at least provide some real-life corollaries as to why Assassins are a certain way.

But you didn't. How many assassins do you know IRL? Doubtful that the answer is even one.

In this you'd be right, I know of no Assassins. But I know what they're supposed to do. The point I was trying to get across (that you either disregarded or completely missed) was that at earlier ranks Guardsmen are supposed to have broad exposure to a multitude of weapon systems, but expertise in none (yet), Whereas the Assassin is supposed to be the one who is nigh unstoppable with one (possibly two) weapon (types). Hence the ability to pick up talents that relect their expertise.

Hot Hands wrote:

And I don't have to resort to juvenile game-bashing to do so either. Grats.

I'm not trying to be offensive to anyone, but I strongly dislike the idea that a character has to fit a cookie-cutter role based on a title, class, career path, etc. I'd also suggest you stop taking offense so easily - if I want you to be offended, I'll make sure it's direct and personal because I'm not a very subtle guy.

Actually, what I gave you (and you missed...again) was a big fat "Meh". I've dealt with bigger, better e-thugs than you, and your petty "threat" of "direct and personal" is laughable at best. Like I said, you play your way....

Braddoc wrote:Might as well add that guardsman don't get Arms Master

A Guardsman doesn't need Arms Master... they've got access to pretty much every weapons proficiency in the game anyway.

In this you'd be right, I know of no Assassins.

No surprise. I wasn't trying to be a jerk, just trying to point out that none of us really know good RL examples of 40K personas.

But I know what they're supposed to do.

You think you do, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you do. Moreover, your perceptions of an assassin's 'role' may be accurate to a single source of inspiration, but not to all ('realistic' vs. cinematic is one divide, and there are subdivisions even after that). There are many ways of killing, and few assassins should limit themselves to just one or two.

The point I was trying to get across (that you either disregarded or completely missed) was that at earlier ranks Guardsmen are supposed to have broad exposure to a multitude of weapon systems, but expertise in none (yet), Whereas the Assassin is supposed to be the one who is nigh unstoppable with one (possibly two) weapon (types). Hence the ability to pick up talents that relect their expertise.

And my point is that your point doesn't really fit the Career Paths very well. Assassins get many of the same weapon trainings as Guardsman at close to the same ranks and costs. For example, a Guardsman gets Heavy Weapons Training (SP) at the second rank while an Assassin gets it at the 3rd rank. In some odd cases, they keep up just fine - both get Heavy Weapon Training (Launcher) in the 5th rank even though the Assassin pays a bit more for it (200 XP rather than 100 XP). For some of the more common 'upgrade' weapons - such as Basic Weapon Training (Bolt), Melee Weapon Training (Chain), and Pistol Training (Bolt) - are all available at the same rank at the same cost. With the advancements set out as they are, there is no reason that an Assassin could not be every bit as versatile in weapon selection as a Guardsman. With the 'could' spelled out by the rules, the 'should' - the "supposed to" that you noted - is left to the player to decide how to advance the character.

Actually, what I gave you (and you missed...again) was a big fat "Meh". I've dealt with bigger, better e-thugs than you, and your petty "threat" of "direct and personal" is laughable at best. Like I said, you play your way....

We can probably drop this part unless you're trying to deliberately provoke me. I don't really bother with petty text-fighting, and anyone that's interacted with me online can give you a tip that I'm hardly an 'e-thug' and am generally pretty easy going and considerate. I really wasn't threatening you in any way - I'm just pointing out that you really don't need to ask yourself if I'm trying to be offensive or not. I'm not. If for some reason I decide to change my approach, it will be obvious. If something I've already said has offended you, I apologize.

Hot Hands wrote:And my point is that your point doesn't really fit the Career Paths very well. Assassins get many of the same weapon trainings as Guardsman at close to the same ranks and costs. For example, a Guardsman gets Heavy Weapons Training (SP) at the second rank while an Assassin gets it at the 3rd rank. In some odd cases, they keep up just fine - both get Heavy Weapon Training (Launcher) in the 5th rank even though the Assassin pays a bit more for it (200 XP rather than 100 XP). For some of the more common 'upgrade' weapons - such as Basic Weapon Training (Bolt), Melee Weapon Training (Chain), and Pistol Training (Bolt) - are all available at the same rank at the same cost. With the advancements set out as they are, there is no reason that an Assassin could not be every bit as versatile in weapon selection as a Guardsman. With the 'could' spelled out by the rules, the 'should' - the "supposed to" that you noted - is left to the player to decide how to advance the character.

I'm sure you'll agree this is the only part worth responding to. While I agree for the most part that advancements are alike in some ways, it is the differences that define the character. Assassins have access to better combat skills (besides weapon proficiencies), as has been noted earlier, well before the guardsman. Tactically speaking, I'd rather have my guardsmen laying down a heavy layer of suppressive fire while my Assassins maneuver forward and wipe up the immobilized targets. Heck, there's even a Calixian Career choice that highlights what I've been saying all along (Moritat Reaper). That isn't to say that Assassins are pidgeon-holed into being solely a melee combatant (they can still go for ranged). The point is that they can be very strong in ranged at the expense of melee superiority; or vice-versa. Since they will never be able to select ALL the skills and talents (no career allows for this), they have to pick and choose to excel at some and be average at the rest; or be average at all and excel at very little.

First of all, I don't mind the price of stat increases, as has been mentioned numerous times the focus isn't on uber stats, it's on uber bonuses. And this for me applies out of combat too. If a player can provide a worthy argument to an NPC, then I will geive a bonus to the Fel check to reflect that. Specifying a focal point/object for searching based on a hunch rather than just 'searching the room' will give a Per bonus...

As for the comparative costs for different stats according to class, I ran into an interesting situation during character creation last night. One of my players wanted to go as a cleric, and a particularly fiery one at that. For anyone who knows the tabletop game, they are often depicted running around wielding eviscerators or great hammers screaming blasphemies to the enemy. So why is it easier to increase BS than WS? f a character is going to be swinging his stick at the enemy rather than pointing his gun, shouldn't he get better at chopping them easier?
As a result, we amended the advancement table for his character, making the WS initial upgrade 100, with the BS initial upgrade at 250. Simple!

Lordoftheendtimes, are you sure you aren't thinking too much in WFRP terms about character advancement? I used to do that too, thinking that more than 100 xp per advance was an overprice, until I realized that you're actually supposed to get twice as much xp in DH as in WFRP.

Relative to WFRP, the 100 xp advances are actually waaaaay underpriced, the 250 xp ones just slightly overpriced, and only the 500+ xp ones really overpriced.

I like it. It doesn't force anyone to buy anything they just don't think fits their character concept. It allows for deviation from the norm, at a price.