Cheating Players

we get a smilar situation, one guy never declares which one of his dice is tens and which is units, basically I just tell him re-roll it coz I don't know if you passed or not.

Simple? fairly, does he like it? who gives a flying

I had to cancel a Rifts game because on of my players tried to argue some really stupid points like Area of Effect Missile damage should only effect the portion of the vehicle they hit and NOT carry-over to other areas despite the whole ARE OF EFFECT rule...so I ran 7th Sea with rules so simple he coudln't argu them with me...HAH. He played a shape-shifter and tried to argue that because he was flying around as an Owl at Night he couldn't be spotted by a woman on the ground...of course I couldn't exactly tell him she was UNDEAD and could sense life-forces thus visual difficulties were irrelevant. Luckily for me his schedule changed and he had to drop the game...
...Point being that I KNOW how painful it can be to deal with troublesome palyers, especially when they are friends...but deal with it ASAP or it will get worse...8P

Don't let players argue with you about rules. Period. You're running the game, you make the rules.

Now by this I don't mean never admit mistakes. If you screwed something up and a player legitimatey points it out, be gracious and make a judgement call as to how to fairly correct the mistake.

However, if they bring up an error and you make what you think is a fair ruling to resolve the error, don't let the player keep trying to argue fine points. Your considered judgment is final and if he has a problem with it, tough.

Back in the day, if I caught someone cheating in an RPG, or they persisted in arguing after I told them to stop, then their character would suddenly be hit with a) the first lightning bolt of a suddenly gathering storm, b) a sudden and massive corronary, or c) a toilet seat from the MIR space station. Whether or not the character survived the experience, it generally got the player's attention.

I had a cheater in my game who cheated in almost the same way.

This is what I did to resolve the problem:

1. Made everyone declare rolls and roll in the middle of the table.
2. Made everyone use dice that I could read from where I was standing at the end of the table.
3. Didn't argue rules, if they didn't like my declaration I would just tell them, "Life isn't fair, if you think it's a rules issue bring it up after the game, we're in a session right now." Don't let them waste precious game time.

The cheater stopped for awhile, but he wasn't doing as well, and started cheating again soon by pulling his dice and using barely readable dice. So I confronted him by himself and told him that as the GM I don't brook cheating in my games and that if he wanted to make it appear that he was cheating, by pulling his dice and the like than he could quit. I told him that I didn't need to catch him red handed, since it's my game and I could boot him whenever I wanted to. If he could abide by the rules that all of the other players have no problem following than he could stay.

He chose to quit and bad-mouthed me for a few months. He got booted from the next two games he played in for cheating as well when the GMs asked me if he had cheated in my game.

All he did was make it evident that he was a bad cheater and people saw that. For the first month though a few people weren't sure and would ask me why I was so harsh on the guy. I would tell them honestly, and they'd shrug and go, "Okay."

Don't worry, the truth will shine through, and if people stay on his side they don't deserve to be your friends, and your game will be a thousand times better without the player.

My game had almost foundered because of the cheater (I let it go on for almost two months), and after he was gone we played for another year and a half before two of my four players moved within a month of each other out of state. I still game with the other two.

Oh, and the cheater came back to me a year ago and asked to play in one of my games. I told him he could wait for a spot, and if he even once grabbed his dice I'd kick him out right then at the table. He was cool with that.

It's a bit funny--I actually tell my players when to cheat sometimes during the games I run because sometimes a string of bad luck can be really, really disheartening and ruin their fun (dice tend to hate me when I play so I try to avoid them as often as possible and understand the frustration that could go with that).

However, I don't like it when my players cheat without my encouragement/approval and do so frequently. Mostly because IMO there really shouldn't be a reason for a player to decide to need to cheat in an RPG.

probably seems weird with what I posted earlier, but I felt it needed to be said. sometimes cheating is ok. most of the time--it's a dick move.

here's another option (so I don't digress too much). Tell the other players to cheat too--but cheat by better successes than the other guy. get better effects and whatnot. always have him declare his result first so the others can top each other and it

I generally just have my players roll against their skill stat and tell me how many degrees of sucess or failure they made the roll (against the base number) by. Then I apply all the modifiers necessary to determine if they were successful or not.

Using this method, just don't tell the player the modifiers, and then add or subtract whatever is necessary to render the results of the cheater's rolls into what they should be rather than whatever it is he's claiming.

[edit: This also allows you to somewhat subtly make up for instances when the "dice hate the players" by throwing in random modifiers w/o necessarily revealing what they were. A tool to both help and hurt.]

DocIII wrote:[edit: This also allows you to somewhat subtly make up for instances when the "dice hate the players" by throwing in random modifiers w/o necessarily revealing what they were. A tool to both help and hurt.]

I do that too, when I can get away with it. Sometimes the frequency of rolls with 80+ results defy probability

NeoSamurai wrote:

DocIII wrote:[edit: This also allows you to somewhat subtly make up for instances when the "dice hate the players" by throwing in random modifiers w/o necessarily revealing what they were. A tool to both help and hurt.]

I do that too, when I can get away with it. Sometimes the frequency of rolls with 80+ results defy probability

Well, I sometimes things just go all to hell. I guess that's why its a game instead of just story hour.

DocIII wrote:

NeoSamurai wrote:

DocIII wrote:[edit: This also allows you to somewhat subtly make up for instances when the "dice hate the players" by throwing in random modifiers w/o necessarily revealing what they were. A tool to both help and hurt.]

I do that too, when I can get away with it. Sometimes the frequency of rolls with 80+ results defy probability

Well, I sometimes things just go all to hell. I guess that's why its a game instead of just story hour.

I have no problem letting things going to hell. just hate seeing too many decisions based on bad die rolls for my players rather than their choices or my nefarious plans.

Ah nefarious plans, the meat and mead of GMs everywhere.

On another note: one GM I used to play with kept unruly players in line by keepin a few d30's around to chuck at them whenever they caused problems...

The easiest solution to dice roll cheating is to find a box lid or some other rolling surface that has defined edges and only allow rolls made in that to count.

why cant you kick him out of youre game?
Beside i despise cheater and might as well say tht you hit instead of rolling it.

I always cry of enthusiast when i roll something that is like under 10%!!!

After reading the update on how he cheats, the fixes seem simple enough to me.

a) Any house rules you make get written down as you make them. You repeat back to the group what you wrote down to make sure what you wrote is what you told them. That solves the "You said this" problem

b) Remind the munkin that regardless of what the book says, you have the right to change the rules, as long as you're consistant with the rules. Just because he can find the obscure line in the rulebook that states that all boltguns are black in color, doesn't mean that in your game you can't have some being fire engine red, as long as you're consistant. See rule a on how to help make this consistant.

c) All players declare exactly what they are rolling for, and like many said, roll on the table in front of you. No roll is accepted by you unless you personally see the results. Do not tell them the difficulty of the roll either, so that you can fudge it a bit (geneally to help them out when you screw up, or they just roll bad consistantly, but sometimes to add drama where you failed to add it)

d) as to the "He knows all the lore in the verse" that's your fault. They have lore skills for a reason, and honestly, no one can be a combat god and a lore god until much later. It assumes you're allowing his OOC knowledge to blend with his IC knowledge. This also assumes that you're not sure what skills he has and doesn't have when it comes to lore, as simply if he doesn't have daemonology lore he shouldn't know jack about that daemon that is chewing on his leg, other then it hurts him. If he tries to claim he does, tell him to role on the skill. Since he doesn't have it, and since its an advanced skill, guess he doesn't know it.

e) If after all of this happens, it doesn't work, you're going ot have to kick him or end the game. Sorry, but if you're afraid all of your friends will leave you because you kicked him out over a game, then to be honest they weren't very good friends anyway. If he can't understand that his disruptive behavior is ruining the fun of the other players, or you, then he's not much of a friend either.

f) remove that silly stupid side table. Don't even have it near him anymore. What isn't there he can't use. Barring that, have another player sit there from now on during your games.

Another reason why I cant just give him a shouting or throw him of the team is the simple fact that he would take it very personally and we have alot of common friends, it would lead to some conflict within my social circle, also he has been helpfull towards me in the past outside of the game and I feel I owe him a debt still, although that is unrelated to the game itself.

Thats always the hard stuff. You could try asking him politely, but he might go off anyway. Sometimes though it is just plain hard to deal with problem players. I often roleplay with a good mate of mine, but he is a terrible roleplayer and can't distinguish between player and player character. He has a long list of games he has killed. However, his friendship is worth more than the odd game he kills. Then on the otherside, friends do come and go, as you get older, you generally tend to shed the cheaters and losers anyway.

joe_momma wrote:You are the GM. It's not always an easy task, with it comes responsibility, you are a referee, a judge. Stop the cheater. Tell him how it is, it's your game, be a leader. Otherwise your players that don't cheat have every right to throw beer cans and half eaten hot dogs at you. Stop crying in the dugout and step up to plate!

It's your job to ensure a good time is had by all the players. Call the guy out and be firm, you never know, you could be doing him a favor he may just learn that he can have fun without cheating. As it stands now you are losing the respect of the entire group and that will doom your game.

I think this is a good summary of what i think is most important. it is the Gm job not only to provide the in game atmosphere but also to make it enjoyable for all parciptiants outside the game it self. Group dynamics and how to create a functionable gaming group is one of the most important things in a GMs job, but one we speak very little of, ostly because it is so difficult to do.

Remember one thing, players there is plenty of (which most can be teached into being good, whatever good players are), good gamemasters is few and far between.

Go figure ....

Schedim wrote: Remember one thing, players there is plenty of (which most can be teached into being good, whatever good players are), good gamemasters is few and far between. Go figure ....

I disagree, almost all the poeple I really enjoy as plyers are also great GM's. I only know a few people who are good players but poor (or non) GMs.

deeprlyeh wrote:The easiest solution to dice roll cheating is to find a box lid or some other rolling surface that has defined edges and only allow rolls made in that to count.

That's what I would do, should stop the die rolling cheating.

In regard to the rest, maybe suggest that he stops complaining or tries running a game as GM, making sure that you as a Player act the same way as he does and when he complains you point out its what he does all the time.

I also agree. Lifetime is too valuable to spend it with bad roleplaying.

Confront him and kick him if he dislikes the idea of playing for fun instead of playing for grief.

Man, roleplaying is a nice hobby, but if the group is held together by a cheater it isn´t worth the effort, you´re fighting in a hopeless battle.

Agmar_Strick wrote: I disagree, almost all the poeple I really enjoy as plyers are also great GM's. I only know a few people who are good players but poor (or non) GMs.

Lucky you! My experience is that it is few who can take the time and dedication to be a GM, but they have enough time and inspiration to be rewarding players. I think nearly everyone who has the ability to enjoy a rpg as a player also have the potential to become a GM, but it is fewer who takes the time to actually do it, especially when you get some years behind you (wives, houses, childern, jobs....)

My problem as a GM is not finding players, it is to find a suitable combination to lift the game.

But this is thread hijacking so I stop speaking now...

I have a much simpler solution that won't disrupt your game as much as the other suggestions. It might entertain the other players as well. Make the bad guys just as effective as he is, but only when they attack him. Yes, I'm saying cheat right back. What can he say? I don't recall if exploding 10s apply to the bad guys as well, but I would consider having those be common when attacking him. He will run out of fate points quite quickly and might get the picture before you end up killing him.

Agmar_Strick wrote:

Schedim wrote: Remember one thing, players there is plenty of (which most can be teached into being good, whatever good players are), good gamemasters is few and far between. Go figure ....

I disagree, almost all the poeple I really enjoy as plyers are also great GM's. I only know a few people who are good players but poor (or non) GMs.

I've had a similar experience to Agmar's. I genuinely require all of my players to be competent GMs. Generally, GM players are more considerate and more careful when dealing with what you are writing. Effectively, they tend to be more giving.

Really, I know ONE player who is a poor GM who still manages to be a good player.

Honestly, in this day and age I think defining one's self as "just a player" is like saying "I only like to receive presents".

Bubonicus wrote:Honestly, in this day and age I think defining one's self as "just a player" is like saying "I only like to receive presents".

lol, I love that. Absolutely, Gm players are much more considerate, more likley to be aware of 'turn taking', less likley to be self aborbed and give due consideration to the plot you've worked on and the group as a whole.

Bubonicus wrote:
I've had a similar experience to Agmar's. I genuinely require all of my players to be competent GMs. Generally, GM players are more considerate and more careful when dealing with what you are writing. Effectively, they tend to be more giving.

Hehe .. It can work both ways, I know I can be annoying as a player due to I produce more background and ideas than some of my GM, who get some kind of .... jealousy feeling or something, like I taking something away from them instead of reinforcing them. So I tries to curb that somewhat these days.

Bubonicus wrote:
Really, I know ONE player who is a poor GM who still manages to be a good player.

I know heaps and heaps of really good roleplayers (and I still put a question sign of what a good player really is) who has done lousy stints as GMs or not really tried it.

But one reason is that our little community here has been blessed over the years with several really really good GMs who have had an intimidating effect (perhaps) on the "common" players (and also have had the effect that it hasn't been any real need for more GMs, as when you are past the teens you can only have that much time for RPGs.

Whack him with an encounter where his dice rolling works against him -

"Upon finally meeting the demon, it conjures forth (number of players) indistinct humanoid forms that seem to warp and twist into different shapes as you try to look at them."

Then have the players fight themselves - but with a significant minus (-20? and half damage) call it a minus to hit them cos they are warping.
But they are really rolling for the demonic copies.

If his (her?) cheating is bad enough to get round the penalties then he's dead. And might learn.

Rule 1 : GM is NEVER wrong.
Rule 2 : If GM IS wrong see Rule 1.

I know what it is to have a cheater in the gruop so all you have to do is listen to all of the replys in this tread and pick the reply you are most satisfied with and follow it. Cheaters destroys all the fun int the game and as I see it the game is about having fun with your friends right?