Saying that, in DE2 it seems that everytime the heroes are doing a search, they're finding the Treasure Chest card - and then luckily drawing the exact best piece of equipment they need from the store cards…. it has really hindered me as the overlord, as the heroes are getting WAY more value out of the searches than you would expect them too.

Luck can make all the difference in this game… which I like. I like randomness.

@nathrotep: you clearly prefer D1. And you have your reasons for that choice, which are surely good ones.

I don't need to prefer D2 over D1.

I like D2 for what it is.

I won't try D1. The rules were too heavy (I read them) and I am not looking for long gaming time. I also read that, due to the less luck driven combat defense results, D1 hero players could take ages to decide about the perfect combination of moves. That would be a source of deep boredom for me. I hate "chess like" overcalculation.

I am not very interested in changing D2 into something else - but time could possibly show that FFG would create expansions that went in the way of augmenting powers and gears of heroes, as you seem to want them to do.

As long as D2 remains light and fast to play, I will adapt.

Robin said:

That is a fair and appropriate question.  And my answer would be, well, not really.

Which I think is part of the problem, as D1 was very much a dungeon crawler.  People have upgraded to D2 expecting a more finely tuned game, and actually ended up with an extremely different game to boot.  In the same way as buying a sequel to a video game, you expect it to be, by and large, the same sort of game, only with refined mechanics and wotnot, I (and it seems, some others too) were expecting the same from D2.

Just look at the furore that the FPS version of XCOM caused - people wanted the turn based game from before, not a drastic re-imagining.  And now we have XCOM: Enemy Unknown…

Hmmm.. I think we are looking at a simple Aestethic goals problem here. If the stuff from the search and store deck would look and be named in a more "high fantasy"-fashion the people missing "cool stuff" would be pretty pleased. Say that the name of iron longsword would be changed to "razor talon" and have some flames on it in the descriptive picture, but keep all stats, everybody would win (except for me who kind of enjoy the low fantasy feel of the gear).

Only problem with doing this is Aestethic scaling and I think that FFG knows this. Its so much easier to top the last expansion if you started out low and worked from there when it comes to "coolness".

Wrapped; that wouldn't work because the stats are all different. I take it you are being sarcastic(?) Either that, or you have no idea what you are talking about. None of it matters because, as we all now know, they were just holding back the treasure cards for the expansion releases. The announcement they made today shows that there will be treasure cards after all. (see below) I'm still going to wait until they pump out a few more expansions; too little, too late to catch my interest until there are more cards. For all those of you who never played the first edition and stubbornly refused to even consider playing, I say-HA! I win this debate. The first edition is superior to the second until they put out more cards. Enough said.

"Fortunately for the heroes, they’ll have plenty of powerful new equipment available at the shop. For example, warriors who often find themselves unable to chase down fleeing foes may want to hide a handbow up their sleeves. This handy trinket can make ranged attack without need to re-equip since it doesn’t technically take one of your hero’s hands to carry it.

For those who’d just as soon avoid a fight, Flash Powder makes for a quick, if dramatic, escape. Throw some at the feet of a nearby foe, and the blinding reaction will leave it stunned long enough for you to make a hasty retreat. Add the Merciful Boots (an Act II Shop card) to the equation, and you’ll have a mobile medic that’s an asset to any team.

These are just a few of the new Shop cards coming, but even with an array of powerful weapons and other items, will the heroes have what it takes to stand before the overlord’s new minions? Look for Lair of the Wyrm on store shelves in just a few more weeks!"

nathrotep said:

Oh, please stop. Get over yourself, you don't win anything, this isn't a contest. Your opinion that the first edition is better is fine, but that's all it is, your opinion, not a fact.

Macnme said:

You are aware that drawn search cards are not reshuffled into the draw deck until the end of the quest, right?  Not the end of the encounter, mind you, the end of the quest.  Adam Sadler has even responded to fan-submitted questions about what happens if the search deck runs out by saying "No more searching until the next quest."  The heroes should only be getting one peice of gear from searching per quest, no matter how lucky they are.

Sausageman said:

I'm curious what your definition of a dungeon crawl is.  Not to insult you or challenge your answer, of course, but just out of genuine curiosity for where you get that impression.  D2E strikes me as being plenty crawly, but perhaps I qualify a dungeon crawl somewhat differently than you.

My impressions of what people mean by dungeon crawl (what we used to call Monty Haul in my RPG days):

• You don't know what's around the next corner or behind the door until you pass it. 
  [strategy = bad; tactics = okay; roll playing = good]  :p

1. Kill monsters [& get XP]
2. Seach & get phat lewts (or lutes once they add a Bard class).
3. Rinse & repeat

• The one with the most toys wins.
   
• Lore is to keep the women & children distracted.

I'm [mostly] kidding -- I enjoy a good Dungeon crawl -- but the term is used as a perjorative in many circles.  I picked D2E because I was looking for more than a DC.  It seemed to fit between Drizzt & Mage Knight.

nathrotep said:

I find this has to be a very immature person that wrote this. This reminds me of a gaming friend that I play with. He's a loot hog and we've lost many co-op fantasy games because getting loot is more important then winning the mission/scenerio to him.

I have played Decent 1st Edition and own it and I don't find it a superior game. 2nd edition has better character advancement in some ways with the class system it incorporated. D1E did allow you to buy more dice and draw random skills but the class system in D2E is better overall and adds more flavor.

The map tiles are better in D2E overall. The art work is better and doesn't look at all the same. Plus the outdoors tiles is nice too which D1E didn't have.

I don't find the shop cards any better or worse then the treasure cards from D1E base set.

I do like the shorter play time and your not forced to slot out 4+ hours just to play a mission./scenerio.

The first expansion is adding more shop cards, more classes, secret rooms, and side quests, what is there not to like.

My sarcastic response was in reply to the other gentleman's sarcastic comments. But thanks for making my point for me; the second edition will now get better as they add the treasure cards they were holding back. Shorter play time was not my issue; it was the boringness of the dungeons and lack of treasure. Even our OL was bored. And I'm not a loot hog; as you are well aware, having played it yourself, in the first edition you almost have to get the treasure to win. Also, the dungeons in the second edition are ridiculously easy to get through. Until the upcoming expansion, there were no treasure cards. The second edition is like an extremely dumbed down version of the first, like they were shooting for a much younger audience. In the first edition, the dungeons were longer, better written, more challenging, and a lot more fun to play. Saying that I'm wrong, and that's just my 'opinion' is all well and good, but it's like someone saying; "Hey, I never played chess before, and probably never will; too many rules, way too long. I just don't get it. But tic-tac-toe! Now there's a game I've played and it's the best thing since sliced bread! I'll just enjoy it for what it is and never even have to try to figure out chess. If anyone tries to tell me that chess is a better game, I'll just scoff at them and tell them that it's just their opinion…." Descent second edition is like tic-tac-toe compared to the first edition. If people like it the way it is, I guess that's fine for them. But they're still missing out on a far superior game. However, none of that matters anymore because they have announced the new treasure cards. In 3 or 4 expansions, I may even try it again to see if it has grown enough to enjoy playing it. Meanwhile, I'll continue to play the many other fine games that FFG offers, like Arkham Horror, Talisman, etc. Until then, you guys have fun playing your 'tic-tac-toe'.

Talisman is the easiest game to play so if D2E is Tic-Tac-Toe then Talisman is Candyland. Talisman requires no skill to play and win, it's all about being the luckiest. I can't believe you think there is actual meat and potatoes to that game. Sure there is treasure cards in the deck but you may never see them. It's very likely to draw nothing but creatures, events, and strangers the entire game.

Okay, so Talisman is not a good example of a game that requires a lot of skill. You got me there. I just lumped it in there as one of the other games by FFG that we like to play. We had more fun with that than Descent second edition, so it got included.

I enjoy a variety of games depending on the people I am playing with, the situation (time & space), and even my mood at the time.  I don't play much chess these days (although I could probaby dig up at least 6 sets around the house), but I have played the occasional game of Tic-Tac-Toe with young kids recently.  I've even tried to play Go, although I'm not very good -- it's a bit too abstract for my tastes.  I like the chrome, although not as much as some.

I am very much enjoying Descent 2E right now.  I can understand why FFG kept the brand, although this is more of a reboot than a sequel.  I prefer games that focus on skills rather than items.  I'd rather go into combat with a Navy Seal armed with a butter knife than a civilian with an assault rifle.  I would enjoy playing D1E in the right circumstances, but finding the time & players these days … 

True believers know they are right; it's not a matter for opinion.  Resistance is futile.  Any counter-argument will be met with "Nope, I'm right; you're wrong!"  Not much point debating with the nope rat.

Thank you Triu. Well spoken. I am passionate about how much better my playing experience was with the first edition. My whole game group agrees with me. When people who have never tried it tell me that the new one is better, I know that they are wrong. This is based on having played both games with my group, with players who have played a lot of different games. People can try and tell me that the new one is better until they are blue in the face and it won't change my mind. My group is about having a rewarding experience with fun, compelling, and challenging games. As you say, it's hard to find the time to get everyone together to play, and when we do, we want to have a great time. The second edition frustrated everyone in my group. We did not have a great time. The main problems we had were the over simplification and the loss of the treasure cards. If you compare the first dungeon in the first edition to the first dungeon in the second edition you will see what I'm talking about. It's not about being a 'loot hog'. It's not about 'game length'. It's about having fun. If you enjoy the new one, then good for you. It's not completely unsalvageable, and the new treasure cards will help with that. I'm excited to see that it may grow back into something that would be worth playing again. But people shouldn't try and tell me that the old one isn't better, because there they would be wrong. And that is a proven fact based on hours of play time with both editions. I don't see how anyone can argue with that. If that makes me a 'nope rat', that's fine; but I'm still right.

1. Nathrotep I am 100% sure you are in the vast minority with your opinion that you are positing as "proven fact". I've talked to dozens of people in person and read countless opinions online stating that Descent 2E is a vast improvement over 1E. In fact yours is the first and only opinion I've encountered that states otherwise.

2. I've read through this entire thread and you seemingly contradict yourself quite a few times. Namely in one part you say that Descent 1E is more a challenging tactical game than 2E but then you say that it's practically impossible to win in 1E without getting the treasure chests and they are random. Then you later say that nothing is forcing players to get these treasure chests. Then you later say again that it is practically impossible to win in 1E without getting the treasure chests.

3. How tactical and challenging could a game be if all you're trying to do is outgear your encounters or on the flip-side avoid undergearing your encounters? 2E also gives you choices as to skills to take with xp. I don't know how you can argue that a game that takes much longer to play in which your goal is to simply outgear your enemies is better in any way to a game that plays smoothly and intuitively much shorter as to be bearable and you are given diverse and interesting objectives each encounter where gear may help but you are not going to steamroll if you outgear and you won't get destroyed if you undergear because of the game consisting of several factors like skills and movement being much more important than purely outgearing and killing monsters.

4. I for one really like the fact that you get most if not all of your equipment from the shops. It's a really nice breath of fresh air compared to every damn game (including video games) where all shops have complete trash you would never buy. Also if you think about it this is effectively the same thing as finding treasure except you are given more choices and choices are better in my opinion. This is because the items you find are converted to gold and you get to choose at the shops what you want to buy. If all of the equipment the heroes got were 100% random I would hate the game.

5. Everything you have said in this thread as convinced me beyond any doubt that 2E is worlds above 1E. I am surprised that you have people you know that are turning down playing 2E to play 1E. None of my friends would ever prefer 1E to 2E.