WildKnight said:

And it already is, as there are plenty of non-Jedi examples of characters making an impact.

But whether you like it or not, the Star Wars canon (something FFG has to at least keep in mind) constantly shows that Jedi (especially the trained variety who've made Knighthood) are more powerful than the non-Force-using community.  Saying that "Luke's a fighting machine but poor Han isn't" is a cop-out.  Han knows he's best off not getting into a straight-up fight, and plans accordingly.  As for Fett, it wasn't like he was fresh as a daisy when Han got a lucky shot in; Fett had been blasted to the ground by a deflected blaster cannon shot just a bit earlier; Luke didn't "finish him off" becuase there were more immediate threats (those guys on the other skiff that were armed and attacking) and Fett wasn't moving.

As for you remark about "what about all those Jedi that died off-screen?," they died off-screen.  In other words, they weren't important to the plot, something that (under a compentent GM at least) should never happen to the PCs.

But I'm dropping this subject, as I don't want to see this thread de-rail into a pointless flame war.

Its been a while since I've read the book, but just to kind of help explain why a "high level" jedi could still be gunned down -

because autofire and hordes of enemies is still quite dangerous in this system. Combine that with it being a surprise attack, and a galaxy spanning influence of the dark side (ref the entire notion that Palpatine was able to obfuscate the future from the jedi), it is reasonable to see how this system could cover that.

Also, as others have stated, that the jedi were killed off screen, they were not plot important. EotE is a highly narrative system (simulationists beware), and plot importance is an extremely useful trait to have in this game.

WildKnight said:

We are? When exactly? I've been a massive Star Wars junkie since the West End Games period, but I can't remember any mention of that. On the other hand, the Jedi ability to see into the immediate future is mentioned often, and it tends to be this that they use to create the illusion that their reflexes are inhuman. It goes without saying that the Jedi who were slaughtered when Palpatine betrayed them (and not all of them were. Some escaped alive, only to be killed later by Vader) weren't actively using their abilities right then because they simply weren't expecting anything lke that to happen. Simply put, their abilities were either not focused at all, or were focused at what they perceived to be the enemy. Only Yoda is shown being able to sense something wrong in his allies, and he is typically presented as one of the most powerful Jedi of his time. 

You make the basic mistake of assuming that Luke isn't powerful in ROTJ because his target selection might not be ideal. He's shown plowing through all opposition, so that would be a big mistake. Luke was immensely powerful at that time, yet even that was a far cry from the power of a fully trained Jedi in the Old Republic era. There is simply no situation in the movies where a regular person is shown to be the equal of a Jedi. The closest we get is when Jango Fett fights them, but he fights dirty, has the element of surprise, and has technological superiority. Once he gets into a straight fight later on, Mace Windu wins effortlessly. 

I'm no big fan of making characters superhuman because they're "cool" either (I'm not a big fan of Space Marines as protagonists in stories, or characters like Drizzt Du'orden), but in the case of the Jedi they are repeatedly and unquestionably shown as much more powerful than non-Jedi. Does that mean that a Jedi can't be surprised or can't be killed by massive force? Of course not! They need to be using their powers to be powerful. If they don't, they are merely human. That's what made Palpatine win. He manipulated the situation to such an extent that the Jedi trusted the Clone Troopers and were used to fighting alongside them. There was nothing that could have prepared them for what was about to happen. Just look at the way Cody betrays Obi-Wan in Episode 3. Nothing could have prepared him for that, as Cody was totally loyal mere seconds earlier. 

It's completely fine if you don't want to include super-powerful Jedi in your campaigns, but don't make the mistake of assuming that such a solution would reflect the canon. The Jedi are such a powerful entity, both alone and as a group, that they are outside the reach of most politicians, and the presence of a single Jedi in wartime can turn the outcome completely around (as we see in the Clone Wars cartoon repeatedly). But you must also not make the mistake of thinking that "powerful" means "undefeatable". Palpatine found the flaw in their defenses and exploited it without mercy, and he won because of it, at least for a time. 

TiLT said:

Sounds like a specific reference to how Qui-Gon references Anakin's reflexes when the topic of pod-racing comes up in Ep1. Its mentioned in other material that humans actually don't particpate in pod-racing due to sub-par reflexes.

That said, that level of ability is indeed covered in EotE and is not "high level" at all. So I'm not really seeing the issue here.

Note that when I brought up the notion, I meant it more that a full jedi knight is indeed of a higher level of ability than the starting PCs of EotE who basically begin the game at a level of ability just slightly below the main cast of Ep4.

I did not mean it as much as saying that jedi = epic level or something, just that I want to point out a jedi level character has a significant advantage over the starting EotE character. And its meaningful to notice that difference. The point is that I respect that the game starts at a lower power level than jedi. If it made starting non-jedi PCs equal to jedi, they would need to hand over a significant portion of XP. Note that in this game, that much XP is still only going to equal a small set of bonuses (maybe a few talents, boosting a few core skills/abilities, maybe learn a few specializations).

Begun, the Jedi PC Wars have.

KommissarK said:

I'm not saying that it is.  I'm saying that I hope that when they put out the book on Jedi and the Force, that's not what they become.  This was an extension of the conversation about how the books are being put out earlier in the thread.

Donovan Morningfire said:

I don't agree with you, at all.  Vader/Anakin is, certainly, as well as Yoda, Made, and Sidious/Palpatine…  but all of those people are particularly powerful examples of force users.  Obi-Wan, by contrast, has a neat bag of tricks, but doesn't appear to be significantly more powerful than Jango Fett.

Doc, the Weasel said:

Knock yourselves out.  I've said my piece, and far as I'm concerned the whole debate can go the way of both Death Stars, especially as it has nothing to do with the original question.

I think this should end the Jedi "question/problem". During a scene on Tatooine at Skywalker's home, Anakin says nothing can kill a Jedi, and Qui-Gon Jin replies I wish that were so. This proves that Jedi's being unstoppable are just hype, and even a powerful Jedi like Qui-Gon can see that a jedi is not an all powerful being.

A true jedi has only the force and a lightsaber to protect him, and though those skills can be powerful, they do not give anything more than an unexpected edge in combat. The mandalorians who went to war with the republic fought jedi with nothing more than armor, guns and their skills.

So using the Han Solo example put out there before….

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." (HYPE)

"Look, good against remotes is one thing. Good against the living? That's something else."(HYPE)

"Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen *anything* to make me believe that there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. 'Cause no mystical energy field controls *my* destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense."(HYPE)

Though Han comes around by the end of RotJ to believe in Luke's skills, he still stated at the rescue from Jabba's Palace,

 Luke:  There's nothing to see. I used to live here, you know.
Han Solo:  You're gonna die here, you know. Convenient.

But we seem to be missing the biggest part of this whole silly argument, the game seems to be taking place during the time period of Episode 3 to Episode 6, where the Empire is at the height of it's power and the Rebellion is just starting to be able to fight back and ther are no JEDI because the have been hunted to the point of extinction.

William Starbrand said:

Quite a few of the expanded works show numerous exceptions - Jedi remnants (some quite powerful) that hid out in the fringes of the Empire. That's the exact kind of setting that this game gives to us, yet these possibilities have been pushed aside. It's not because these characters are inappropriate to the setting, it's because FFG is not yet comfortable enough to put out their full-on Jedi force rules. Hence their 'not yet' answer to the question. It's also an answer that assures that they can pump out another core rulebook since many SW fans would like to see Jedi in the game.

Here's the issue as I see it:  Jedi are powerful because the media we have of Jedi shows them as such.   They can do things that a 'normal' can't.  Now, in the beta we had access to the force sensitive exile, and it provided some really nice advantages to those who had access to the force but didn't necessarily have the proper training… training.. that could be the key word right there.  After all, Yoda did say:   "Only a fully trained Jedi Knight, with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vader and his Emperor"

The key is training.  Jedi as I see it are not any more powerful than any other character of equal skill level.   The thing is, Jedi train their ENTIRE life, starting from a very young age.  The Jedi we see as adults have, in game terms, accumulated a lot of xp and spent it to build up their skills and talents.  

An average Jedi could very well have 500 xp invested into their appropriate talent tree when it comes out.   This would make them very good at what they do.  Much  like a blaster for  hire type character or a combat pilot will be good at what they do. 

The force, as we have seen in the beta does have a number of abilites that upgrade the dice in your pool, or increase the difficulty.  This mimics what we've seen in the movies, with Luke firing the proton torpedoes that destroyed the DEATH STAR, and Anakin's ability to podrace.  Even the ability to deflect shots with a lightsaber can be done (deflect, not redirect) - and this is with what is in the beta, and most likely in the CORE book.

Now, I hope, when the Force and Destiny book comes out, it details how to run a Jedi or other powerful force user campaign, and can blend seemlessly into an existing campaign.  The latter is the key, as to make Jedi not overshadow the other players, they have a similar experience point total but their points will be focused heavily on the force and Jedi related talent trees.   

So, while a Jedi character could be very focused on make a lightsaber wielding, bounty hunter defeating, force using machine, they are limitied.  A colonist/doctor with the same 500 experience is going to be extremely good at what THEY do.  From what I've seen and read of Jedi they are jack of all trades t ype characters.  They can do a number of things competently, often aided by the force.  But a focused character, such as the doctor example, should always be better.   Now if a Jedi then spent another 500 xp to get the same talents/skills as the doctor, and the doctor focused his next 500 at say, being a bounty hunter, then the jedi/doctor character should be better at medical stuff with the force aiding him, than the doctor/bounty hunter. 

The point I'm trying to make is that a Jedi character CAN AND WILL, if aided by their force abilites, be better than anyone else, IF they have the same training.  So a Fighter Pilot who spends 100 xp on abilites, and a Jedi who also spend 100 xp the same abilites, the Jedi will be better - the catch is that a Jedi would have to have spend experience on his force talent trees, as well as any Jedi talent trees.   The jedi pilot has to divide experience between being a pilot and a Jedi - the offset, is if they spend experience on the right force talents, it will make them a better pilot, but not so much as to overshadow the dedicated pilot.  This is how it should be.

The Force and Destiny book, Age of Rebellion, and Edge of the Empire should seemlessly blend together but there will have to be some stipulations.  A full fledged Jedi, will have earned and spent considerably more expereince than a new character in Edge of the Empire (and possibly Age of Rebellion).  This woudl represent their years of training.  Ideally, full Jedi should be used in a more Mentor role, such as that mimicing a master and padawan.  I really hope that Force and Destiny goes this route - That of a Jedi Knight in hiding teaching the player characters they ways of the Jedi - this makes them they same power level, as new characters with the same starting experience, as characters from the other core books.  However, if you want to be full fledged Jedi running from the Empire, you make your characters with more experience.  This offers two ways to play the game, and an easy way with which to add the newest core book in to an existing campaign.

To sum up, Jedi ARE  more powerful than their non-force using compatriots, BUT it is because of their training which, in game terms, they have paid for by having to spend more experience.   By adjusting the experience a starting Jedi character gets, they become anything from a new Padawan, to a Jedi that has been running from the Empire since Order 66.  A Jedi should be better than anyone else when aided by the force, but ONLY if they have the same training.  The force should augment existing skills and training, not be a jack of all trades replacement for this training.    

TiLT said:

That Blasted Samophlange has it.

A 100XP Jedi *isn't* more powerful than a 100XP non-Jedi.  You just don't see that 100XP Jedi outside of the temple where they're still training, except in the rarest of circumstances.

The idea that Jedi are somehow *innately* more powerful than equally well trained non-Jedi because we mostly see well-trained Jedi, is the same logic that would claim that a Bounty Hunter is more powerful than an equally well trained non-Bounty-Hunter because we watch Jango beat up on Obi-Wan.  (Remember, Jango *won* that encounter on Kamino!)

A Jedi Knight isn't a 100XP starter character.  A Jedi Padawan being sent out into the galaxy at large (still along side his assigned Knight) isn't a 100XP starter character.  The closest we see to a 100XP Jedi is probably the padawan who gets gunned down in sight of Bail Organa when the 501st were storming the Jedi Temple.

<facepalm>

Some things never change.  Using EotE to create Jedi characters would be like using something like stock DnD 3.5 to run a historically accurate 16th century court intrigue campaign (I've been watching 'The Tudors' on Netflix):  Despite some thematic similarities, it's a very poor fit and not what the system was designed to do.

</facepalm>

The mechanical FR2 cap on PCs in the RAW is intended, and helps to maintain the flavor of the campaign.  Even though some NPCs exceed this value and the book provided some benchmarks for FRs 1-7, it's more for the GM's information than the player's.

This isn't saying you can't.  If you simply have to have Jedi, then houserule something.  I personally like assigning some point cost and adding some obligation cost (A player can increase FR from 2 to 3, gain 20 obligation [Hunted by the Inquisition] and spend 30 points).  You just have to realize that the game isn't intended to support that character type by design.

-WJL

I think your facepalm is a little off the mark.   The discussion, at least put forth by me, is more about HOW to incorporate Jedi into the same system as the characters from EotE.  It has been stated that the dice are to be used by all three games - Edge of the Empire, Age of Rebellion, AND Force and Destiny.  The fact that we have force powers already shows that the system is designed to do that very thing.  Now, we can agree that as the setting is presented, there are NO Jedi.  I'm cool with this.  But people want to convert characters over, and play Jedi. 

The player base will find a way to do this.

What we know is that some random fringer who finds out they have a connection to the force can do some pretty cool things - BUT.. they are limited by how powerful they can get without a teacher as there are no Jedi.   The Jedi order will most likely be represented by a class - offering a lightsaber skill, and various specialties - possibly, the Guardian, Consular and Sentinal.  These specialties, whatever they may be, will provide a character the ability to increase one's force rating.  Not to mention give a whole bunch of talents for deflecting blaster bolts, jumping, etc, etc.  Everything a Jedi wants to do. 

What I am putting forth is that a Jedi character, if given the same amount of experience as starting Edge of the Empire character, does not represent the examples we see in the media, but more likely a neophyte padawan who has just been apprenticed to a Jedi Knight.  To accurately represent Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, and various Jedi at the height of their power, you have to give them more experience.  Just like Boba Fett isn't going to be some super bounty hunter when he starts out.  

LethalDose, I think you're wrong when it comes to they system not being able to handle Jedi - the fact is we haven't seen a talent tree for a Jedi Class, so we don't know how they will be represented.  But since the games are supposed to be primarily solo, but able to link together, the should be as compatible as possible.  The easiest and in my opinion, best way is to make a full on Jedi Knight, a character with more experience.  Possibly around 500 or more.