awayputurwpn said:

Well, as I stated above, the vast majority of what a Consular and Sentinel would cover is already handled by existing careers without having to devise new talent trees.  Which isn't quite as easy as it first looks, trust me.  About the only thing that is distinctly "Jedi" is lightsaber usage, which is unique enough to warrent it's own talent tree.

As GM Chris quite wisely cited, when doing homebrew material, if there's an existing system, already use it.  Lightsaber combatant?  Not covered.  Marauder has a similar theme, but is focused exclusively on Brawl & Melee and being a meatwall.  Social expertise? Politico.  Scholarly knowledge? Scholar.  Getting into places and ferreting out the truth? Thief.

 Yeah, you speak the truth Dono.  I envisioned Consular as a blend of Politico and Scholar with some Force-use and a dash of Lightsaber Defense. Sentinel was a bit harder to nail down, but I did settle on Thief mixed with Assassin for a general "feel." The Guardian talent tree was very much the easiest to fill out! Lightsaber dude who hits hard, defends excellently, and is resilient in mind and body.

back to my "Q-DJS," I guess it seemed quick enough for someone who wanted to introduce a Jedi career into their games for whatever reason, and that's where the "if there's an existing system, use it" came into play. I thought that any of those talent trees in the OP could basically be lifted out and dropped in, simply changing "Brawl or Melee" to "Lightsabers." And that really is minimal effort for putting a whole career together.

i suppose my "this or that" approach in the OP may have seemed cumbersome. I've been frustrated in the past when I put out general suggestions of how something might be changed, only to have my words picked apart by the rules-lawyering types who treat my soft suggestions as hard rules. Not here of course, and not on d20radio forums :) but still, my inclination now is to couch things in as non-committal and easy-going a manner as possible so as to emphasize the feel: "this is kinda how I see this working. How would you implement this yourself?" And then discuss rather than dissect :) Which, by the way, has been great over here on these boards. The discussion I mean. 

But really, my original idea could be boiled down to this: 1. Pick a specialization, 2. Put it in this pre-made Jedi career, 3. Change whatever you don't like. Heck a Force Rating talent doesn't even have to be in there; I just know that for me it would be weird if it wasn't. And "making a lightsaber skill" is as easy as writing it in the blank spaces on the character sheets. (Note also that characters should be able to choose Agility or Brawn as their characteristic to use when Lightsabering)

Sorry for the thread necromancy. New to the forum.

I have made a home-brew jedi career and some force powers for my game. Thought I will share it. Here is the link:

http://www.mediafire.com/?m88hq56w1km4h1b

Any comments or suggestions are welcome

Picaboo32 said:

Short version… this completely breaks with the way FFG has Careers and Specializations work, making it very problematic to implement.  Especially as the set-up looks to be that each one is a separate career.  Skill lists pretty much look like a wish list of "hey, this would be awesome to have."

Also, several of the talents are simply far too good, namely Jedi Padawan, since it'd grant a Force Rating boost for only 15 XP, but also Force Training, giving the benefit of 20 XP for only 10 XP, a net savings of 10 XP  I won't even get into the trainwreck that a number of the Knight and Master talents are.

Most of Force Power: Body can be condensed into a single talents, one for the hibernation trance and a separate ranked one for enhanced athleticism.  Force Power: Heal just feels like it's been unnaturally stretched out to flesh out a power tree, and could also be condensed into a single talent, though perhaps one that mimics the existing healing rules by allowing a Force roll rather than a Medicine check, healing 1 Wound per LS Force Point.

As for Force Power: Dark, why not just call it Force Lightning and be done with it, since that's largely what this power is to begin with.  1st Control Upgrade should just have the first effect, and the Strength Upgrades simply provide a boost to damage.

Truthfully, it needs a whole lot of work.

Thank you for your comments.

      to be honest, overpowered is what I was aiming for because, welll…jedi should be. I never intended to be a final version and I understand that it needs some work but I only wanted to share my view of this career. If somebody wants to take a part of it and change it to their liking, at least they won't have to wait until the official version in a couple of years.

      In my defence, it is quite hard to cramp everything a jedi should be capable of doing in one set of talent trees. It is bound to become a 'wish list' as you say. I first focused on bringing the jedi's defences up because, let's be honest…lightsabers are deadly and we could never reproduce the epic fights we see in the movies. Most of the talents I've placed in those trees are simply renamed talents form official existing trees with a different skill so that the power level for XP value remain the same. The munchkin in me added force training talents to add bonus XP to spend on force powers because I felt that the jedi training should give more easy access to force powers than a force exile.

     For the skill list, I played with many possibilities. Most career are meant to be taken one alongside the other but the way I designed the jedi was for one to follow the others. It was thus hard to put a career list for the kinght and the master. If you don't like the two skill choice at knight level or if you feel that the force focus skill is too strong, then we can always redesign it another way. I will hav eto think on it.

     I understand that the big problem is the jedi padawan talent for the jedi master. I tried to down-regulate the sheer power it provides with a high obligation and the sharing of XP but I have not playtested it yet. Any suggestions are welcome.

    As for the force powers, I do not want to put everything as talents because it would restrict them to this career. I wanted for force exile to be able to take those force powers also. I unsderstand that some of these powers are stretched out but I wanted to keep the same force tree format than the official powers and I had to stretch things a little bit. The Force Body power was used to bring the force move and force jump we see in the movies and I didn't put hibernation trance as a career talent so I included it in this power. I guess it could be brought up as a talent instead of a power and could be used to replace of the talents you think is overpowered.

    The Force Dark was not not split between force choke and force lightning because I think it would be a stretch to put two powers which sole purpose is to inflict damage and stun the target. I thus created only one power with two splits, one that focused on damage and the other that focused on stagerring the target. One is not obliged to take the control upgrade and could focus on force choke (like Darth Vader) while another one could focus on force lightning (like palpatine) without putting out two different powers just like the force push we see in th emovie can be reproduced by taking a control upgrade of the force:move talent in the official version.

   The only force power I tought needed a talent instead of a power was farseeing because of the sheer awesomeness of it. I didn't want for anybody with a force rating of 1 to be able pay 10 XP to take farseeing as I felt it needed to be exclusive to the characters with some experience up thier sleeve.

  Overall, it saddens me that you think that my version was not within the spirit of the game. I liked the quick and dirty jedi system discussed in this forum and tried to create a full blown career by taking talents form other career (like command) and renaming them in their respective talent slot (to jedi commander). I filled in the blanks with what I think would make this career into what we expect a jedi to be. It is true that with the same XP level as other characters, jedis are gonna be better. All other SWRPG had the same problem…trying to balance jedi gameplay with the canon jedi.

   I tried to bring a jedi career to life. Well…at least I tried…

   I thank you for your comments and invite anybody else to comment or make suggestions to do so.

Hey Away:

I've been working on an idea for a jensaarai spec and a zeison-sha spec and I've noticed some things that may help you in creating a rough Jedi tree. 

First, I'd look at the force exile tree as a base line example for a Jedi padawan or generic initiate tree. IMO Jedi would probably build a fairly standardized list of core skills, then when they get to the young knight path really start differentiating themselves. Feel free to disagree. 

I would use talents, separating deflect and block that add the appropriate defense when wielding a saber. It was suggested before, but I think making then key to defense is useful, partially because it exists, but also because it interacts well with weapons like the flame projector. 

Things like superior reflexes and sixth sense should repeat too, and the trees should use more for e talents than regular talents. 

For a padawan, I would pre-req the tree at force one, but potentially add two "force rating" talents in, but make them not direct talents. Hopefully that makes sense. 

Hey mister driving bear,

I'd like to see what you've come up with for the Jensaarai and Zeishon Sha - I'm also wondering if you've got plans to look at the Matukai too by any chance. I have a force sensitive in my group that needs some directing and direction, and I'm thinking about letting her come in contact with something like those tradition, by proxy at least.

Jegergryte said:

Sure.

Awayputurwpn, I swear I'm not trying to thread jack you.

Also this is a bit of what I've come up with Awayputurwpn, this is the kind of direction I was thinking of taking the jensaarai. However, I'd like to note that Jedi may need perhaps 2 column 6 row trees, or something non-standard to reflect their (and your interpretation of) place in the game.

So, for Jensaarai I looked at the force exile class and noticed the following:
-13 of 20 talents are force talents
-the tree is uniquely shaped to create more "pathing" in the talents/progression
-there is no toughness/grit talents, and only one non force talent that would be considered a "get" (intense focus)

So looking at this, I can surmise a few things, at least IMO:
-basic talents (toughness/grit) should be kept to a minimum to not overshadow the core specs
-the talents should be built primarily aroundbuilding the unique skill set of the tradition.
-Force talents should dominate the tree.

none of these are shocking, but important to keep inmind as you build the tree. if you find yourself building the bodyguard spec with three talents replaced, you're probably not building it well. That's not fact, not even my opinion, just my impression of the game design.

So here is my inital idea, and then how I modified it, and you can see where I was going.

Pre reqs: FR 2

So.  part of the problem (without explaning my home brew talents) is that dedication and force rating each need to be off the main path.  Second, the inclusion of grit is probably a no no, since it's a pretty basic talent. mental fortress and defensive stance I'm ok with, but Bodyguard makes me uncomfortable.  it's a signature talent of the Bodyguard spec, and it's in here as much as in bodyguard.  Despite the focus of the Jensaarai "defender", I'm thinking I need to be creative and replace bodyguard with something that won't stack, and does something different.

Now, a lot of the talents I made up relied on Force rating.  For instance Ballistakinesis requires one force die commited as an ongoing effect.  Darkside resistance reduces the strain suffered from calling upon the darkside.  Note also that Uncanny reactions are pulled directly from the Force exile spec, and I think I will be adding an second set of talents, say sixth sense or superior reflexes.  those aren't ranked and if you went through exile to get here (a requisite right now), it creates some crossover and reduced cost.

Deflect would be a ranked talent that increases ranged defense when weilding a saber.  the jensaarai "_______" talnets are basically armor mastery, imp armor mastery, and tinkerer applied only to the defender's armor.

Now this was my idea for the defender, but for the Zeison-sha adept I think that should be less powerful.  A good example of this is a talent that doesn't actually increase your FR, but migght interact with force dice once per session, etc.

I don't know if that's useful, but there's some mud in your eye.

While i eventualy would want more jedi powers in the game i think this is a nice starting point if your group was rp'ing new republic time era. I know there are folks who are just in love of the idea of having a OP jedi which when looking at the ones people posted they seem to have alot of tallents/skills that would make all other classes infirior. I think the object of the force sensitive exile is that yes you can feel/influence/control the force but you are still learning how to live in a galaxy where your ass is grass if anyone finds out.

             Do i play a force sensitive character in my group; yes i do but im also a smuggler by trade. RIght now the benifets of being force sensitive in the tallent trees alone make me a force to be recond with in social dialoge, combat and searching for things. There are times when my group is frustraited when their rolls fail and because i have boost dice from the hevens or -setback dice from the gm where i can just stomp through problems. However there is one problem one of our players is a bounty hunter and where i with force sensitivity could end up being his mark. Now how we are rp'ing this is perty cool as well my character dosent know he's force sensitive and by certain circumstances hes just now sensing the world around him and he hasent thought to try and move things with his mind.

   In short i think force sensitivty in this game is to be a plot device or a way to make a character more interesting. Because now has to wrestle with fact if he or she is discovered they will be hunted down or blackmailed into submission to more powerfull people. So buyer beware if you decide being force sensitive is the path for you.

oh and to clairify i am the only force sensitive player in the group and its kinda understood that i will probably be the only one cause of intrest in rp'ing the magnitude of the spec and that those who poses the ability are rare to begin with.

After all the beta update releases… and some insight from some devs…

I'm toying with a house-rule talent(s) that would allow for Deflect and Redirect.

Lightsaber Deflect

[Tree Text]

When wielding a lightsaber, upgrade the difficulty of ranged attacks that target you.  Despair also allows you to redirect some attacks.

[Detail Text] 

Activation: Passive

Ranked: Yes

Trees:  ??? (insert your Jedi trees here)

When wielding an ignited lightsaber, you upgrade the difficulty of any ranged attack that targets you by one for each rank of Lightsaber Deflect.  In addition, if the attacker rolls a Despair, you gain the ability to dictate that the Despair results in a Redirect.  A Redirect is an immediate ranged attack roll made by you, which uses your Discipline skill.  This Redirect attack has a base damage equal to the weapon redirected and a max range of Medium.  In all other respects, it functions as a normal ranged attack.  Per the GM's discretion, some ranged attacks simply may not be able to be Deflected or Redirected, due to their nature or size.

Thoughts?  I think it's a nice balance… and I'd probably put 2 or 3 ranks of it in a tree.  (Or it might depend on the tree, with lightsaber-heavy focused trees gaining 3 ranks, and those with non-combat focuses only getting 1 rank.  The cost of the talent (per rank) would vary greatly again by the tree type; with a Guardian Tree having ranks at 10xp, 15xp, and 25xp; and Consular getting 1 ranks at… say… 15xp.

What do you guys think? 

GM Chris said:

My only thought on this is that upgrading a check while less powerful than adding a setback die vis defense, is much harder to counter, and It doesn't agree with the fiction o regardign flame throwers and etc being better at dealing with jedi than regular ranged weapons.  Also, talents like precise aim are fairly subpar choices right now because very few things have defense worth using the talent on, and having "deflect" add to defense could give talents like that more merit, especially for jedi assassins.

That being said, I can hardly argue with a dev, and if that's what they've indicated, I'd do what they suggest.  :)

I toyed with a similar idea in some other thread. Although I might be inclined to agree with driving bear above. Adding 1 to defence (either ranged and melee separate or a general boost - the only issue is the stacking of defence issue here) would make certain talents more useful in taking down these pesky Jedi (and its a better bonus), but it would do little to change the effects of flame throwers on Jedi - although I'd argue that those cannot be redirected even by rolling a despair.

By adding "only" a setback die, how would one treat redirect? 4 threats? 5? I think the upgrade is a better solution, you don't get the stacking of defence issue, and redirect activation is more logical, or intuitive if you will.  Combined with the sense power, and perhaps a destiny point expenditure, the chances of rolling a despair increases a lot, while still not being overly beardy.

I was also thinking about a lightsaber block talent, along the same lines, but it might be over-kill. It could be included in the deflect talent, so not to get even more upgrades (potentially resulting in increasing difficulty) - but the general idea is that a despair rolled on a melee attack against a lightsaber wielding jedi would activate the sunder quality of the uct against the attacking weapon.

(cross-posted from D20 Radio Forums)

Using the defense option for deflect, I would make a redirect something like (and this is largely spit balling) allowing the Jedi to make a ranged attack on their turn, using the stats of the weapon fired at them. The difficulty would originally be upgraded a couple steps, but each rank of redirect would downgrade the difficulty. 

Less quirky that way. You get shot at, you may redirect. 

Probably make it a you can't be hit style thing too. Tying it to despair or threat is fine, but makes it more clunky and random. But that's just me.