Sorry for not reading a bit of this thread (its oh so often pulled from the other threads on the matter), but my 2 thrones:

1. Gender isn't really a heavy part of the theme of Deathwatch. Its macho, yes, but its not "its macho, because we're men," but rather, "because we're space marines." I see space marines as off on their own thing to a degree that gender is kind of a non issue for them.

2. That said, in the setting, there are only male space marines (or rather, only males are accepted as recruits)

3. Obviously, its your game, so feel free to change as you desire (nobody can really force you to play any certain way). Obviously, you should mention setting changes to your players (as the setting is the common element players can draw from)

4. What I would most strongly urge you not to do, is to make a female space marine a special snowflake. Don't say shes one of a kind, don't say she was given space marine implants from a mad scientist. Don't say there's some secret founding, and only 1 chapter that has female space marines. Instead, just say that women indeed can survive the implant process, and have all chapters have some mix of men and women serving in their ranks. Making a big deal about it is about the #1 thing that goes against the themes of Deathwatch. I would say maintain the "warrior fraternity" feel though, and have even female members be referred to as "Brother."

5. As others have said, an ascended Palatine using the BoM sororitas rules is actually quite effective. Just give her the cloak that provides unnatural toughness, and you wind up with a character that does a bit less damage, but can bring quite a few "advanced" skills to the table, and a whole lot of utility from the faith powers.

[quote]4. What I would most strongly urge you not to do, is to make a female space marine a special snowflake. Don't say shes one of a kind, don't say she was given space marine implants from a mad scientist. Don't say there's some secret founding, and only 1 chapter that has female space marines. Instead, just say that women indeed can survive the implant process, and have all chapters have some mix of men and women serving in their ranks. Making a big deal about it is about the #1 thing that goes against the themes of Deathwatch. I would say maintain the "warrior fraternity" feel though, and have even female members be referred to as "Brother."[/QUOTE]

Specific to this, look at the entire 40k model range. There is a single female Guardsman model, and you can practically see her penis. Given GW's art style, there may be female Space Marines, but we just can't tell. But seriously, there are descriptions of females elsewhere in the Imperium, even if we don't see them.

As I mentioned in your other thread on system integreation, Marines are sexless robots. I think you might be looking into this too much. I'd suggest talking with her and finding out what the real problem is. Is there something specific about gender roles that she has issues with? For example, a friend and I often play female characters (I do so based on image). Another player constantly complains because it freaks him out, thinking that we are all male and suddenly his mental image is me (or the other player) with breasts. I've also heard arguments about people not being able to play a realistic [insert gener], or playing some offensive 50's throwback. I'd find out what her issue is, if there is in fact an issue with playing a Space Marine, and seek to resolve that problem. Personally, trying to bring the systems together just causes problems, and you might be cause more trouble by trying to avoid a non-issue than by just dealing with it.

It is your game, do what ever you think might suit but always speak to your players if you change something essential like the Background. I for example like the grimdark fluff of WH40k and play the Tabletop since the second Edition. I would not accept any change like "every chapter always had females" or "a chapters geneseed has mutated and allows female transplantation". Though this is my, and only my preference. If you want to create your own background, be clear about where you make the changes and discuss this problem with your players. Ask them what they think about it. I like the more or less medieval knight-chapter atmosphere that is about brothers in arms that have ultimatly sacrificed their humanity to some degree to be the last and first line of defense against the threats that seek to destroy not the imperium but humankind.

It might sound "macho" but this is my point of view. We are not playing the badasses that wipe out complete tyranid populations and quote hollywood ar-movies. We are playing holy warriors whos believes and understanding are "different" from anything a normal human has. This is our way of playing them, there is nothing more righ or wrong about it but this is the consence of our group, and this is was I suggest you to seek for. Dont confront them with your fixed ideas someone might agree to though he is not complelty convinces. Seek for a discussion and find the right "theme" you all want to play in.

If you want to roll a female marine then do it though you have to accept that the round isnt true to the fluff anymore. It is/was quite clear that there can be no female space marine. One explanation for this is the "fact" that a human body can not accept the gene-seed and its implants. This has been explained by the fluff (black library) for the reason that the emperor was quite clear about his intentions for he did not want to have a super-human sup-race. He wanted soldiers, the elite of the elite, there is no reason for gender-equality, there is only a result of a-sexual battle-brothers that can create a fighting unit that surpasses everything that was before.

The thunder-warriors and custodes are humankinds greates warriors, but you do not conquer the galaxy with warriors, you need soldiers. And this is why the astartes view their boundaries to their borthers as holy. It is the macho-like stereotype of true battle-brothers, brothers that go straight into the jaws of hell itself to face what nobody else can. It is the same stuff any good WWII/military order  movie/series is made about. We like it that way, but now it is on you to find out what your players like.

There ary many suggestions in these forums like a sororitas, inquisitorial agent or other "regular" role if you want to keep the fluff. If you want to break it all doors are open and only your imaginations and the group consensus are the limits. Make a female marine if you like it but when you start this changes ask yourself how many WH40k you are still playing and how much it becomes your own Sci-Fi-Universe. If you make such changes find clear limits for them, find the borders between your fluff and the official fluff and dont loose your game in to much trade-offs.

darksabrz said:

This is a well thought our rational that is totally in line with the flavor of 40k. I see no reason why this can't be done. It's a much better option than forcing a player (of any gender) to play a weaker character in order to have the character be of a gender they are comfortable with. Despite any previous objections I promise you that the universe will not implode and the inquisition will not actually visit u to enforce any gender policies. 

 

But it is mentioned in DW core that the current crop of gene seeds are coded to male DNA. So I'd find a rational for this chapter Possesing gene seed that's coded to female DNA. Weather by accident or designe. 

Aside from 40k, men in war vs women in war has more to do with the psychological differences between genders than the physical… at least in the modern age. The too major traits are first, women have trouble taking orders from other women, and second women who commit to a fight have trouble retreating, even if it makes sense. Those two traits cost too many lives to allow them in a warzone. Now lets see who burns me for heresy :D

Cryhavoc it is absolutely not a psychological mater, not even a physical one, but an educationnal one.

We are what we are taught we are.

Even today boys and girls are not educate the same way, where physical prowess is fien with boys it is not true for the girls.

To be gentle is good for girl but not so boyish… ect…

Women and men have potebtialy the same amount of violence and murdermaking, the same amount of obediance and revolt, the same amount of love or hate. The differences are in witch is learn to who.

Thebigjul said: While you are entitled to your opinion on the matter, I was speaking from the point of view of countries that do allow women into combat positions and the problems they have noted because of it.

Also, to say men and women work the same phisically and mentally is silly, and while it is a nice thought, it disregards science and reality.

To be clear though, I do not disagree that the way the genders are educated throught life has an impact on things, but I do disagree that it is the only, or even the biggest factor.

On another note, if I was ever going to have a female marine I would use the angle of the ravengaurd. Thier primarch messed with the geneseed, with some disasterous results, but my fluff edit would say that one of the few good things that came out of it was a female geneseed, allowing the ravengaurd to recruit from a larger population pool. After that edit, if the player in question wanted to play a different chapter, it would be a simple matter to have that primarch have shared this information with the emperor/his brothers/mechanicus genetors as appropriate and the information was diseminated to the other chapters.

So the best way to include a female space marine is to rub it in the players face that their character is a mistake?

Personally, I don't foresee any problem with making a regular space marine character and writing on it an "F" for "female". Call it an alternate universe where the Space Marine chapters are made up of men and women whose sole interest is earning glory by killing the enemies of man-kind.

-K

How about a Genetic loophole?

 

I remember reading in some thread somewhere (someone had some sciency explanation) about genetics being a reason for only male space marines and female chromozoms being incompatible with all the genetic augmentations. That and the difference in physical strength due to much lower levels of testosterone.

 

Anyway, here's my loop hole: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_androgen_insensitivity_syndrome

Essentially, the person is female, but not. The syndrome above bassically says the ovaries turn into testicals and produce testosterone. But no other major changes happen (cept no menstral cycle, and the increased testosterone would allow her to be much more equal physically AND have male chromozomes ). Rare cases there are physical problems, but this is make belive so we'll assume best case scenario (they actually had this happen on House M.D. where a super model had this problem + testicular cancer).

 

 

But anyway, you could argue this point in making it possible, as the female would be compatible in every way genetically and strength wise. That way all of the canon nazi's can still sleep at night. : D

 

 

Although personally, I'd just let them play a female if it was an issue. Wouldn't hurt anything, but it might make for funnier RP situations (or at least give more veriety of options).

kjakan said: Where did I say mistake? I said primarch experimented and figured it out, then shared the info… How is that translated to they are a mistake?

Seriously you can break cannon however you want. No one is stoping you. No one will come and visit you will you are sleeping. No one can do anything about it. But so can everyone else. And they dont have to be politically correct when they do it.

Now that is a funny thought. Politically correct 40k, lol.

Cryhavok said:

Our brain is specifically designed to override our biological urges, and the success we have had with this ability is apparant.

So while there is indeed biological difference between men and women, the key part of being human is what we learn from the culture we live in.

A good example of this is that 50 years ago white males dominates universities in the UK, now it is the reverse (source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/9484597/White-males-now-classed-as-a-minority-group-at-university.html#). Women have not got any biological change in those 50 years that have suddenly made them much more intelligent. Its a cultural change and it is much stronger than our biology.

At least that is my opinion. :-)

 

And yet our brains are part of our biology, and the diferences in gender effect brains differently. Wheather well educated or not, women share common mental traits that men don't and visa versa. Very simply men and women think differently, and this makes them better suited, with individual exceptions, to certain tasks. For example one study showed that the way women think makes them better suited to being a sniper than a mann, and men would be better suitded to being a spotter than a woman.

Aside from mental/educational reasons, there are also biological reasons, other than the rather dumb claim to greater strength or endurance (imo women in general have much more endurance than meen anyway). An example of what I mean is how long one gender can remain healthy in a low hygene environment, like extended field operations. Now I havent done extensive research into it, but I do know US army regulation says women cant go longer than three days without a bath/shower to prevent such things as infections starting in the female parts.

Also props to you for the friendly arguement, Im enjoying it. I had expected more along the lines of being drawn and quartered, cremated, and had my ashes spread over moving water. :)

Interestingly enough the US army has been pushing to lift the ban on women in combat, so now women can be front line soldiers too. If the army makes this push it must mean that the biology reasons are not strong enough, i.e. another culture wins over biology.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/24/us/pentagon-says-it-is-lifting-ban-on-women-in-combat.html?emc=na&_r=0

I know there are biological differences, no one can argue with that, and we all have to some extend wrestle with our inner reptile, I just think that the modern brain is winning that struggle. :-)

Alox said: Lol, no arguement about that. On the subject of that bill though, I have my doubts that it is the army pushing it through and not just politicians trying to get some popularity (with most of the high command counting as politicians in my book), and not really having a good grasp of the consequences or effects it will have. Much like a great deal of internet legislature that has gone through in the last decade. Remember the "the internet is tubes that can get clogged" crap? But then, I have no faith in my government at all. Not that Im against it, Im actually a little curious, in a social experiment sort of way, how it will change things, and how long the adjustment will take to it. I wonder at how it will effect the sense of brotherhood or camaradiery in the combat units as well. Any masculine only ways of building such things will likely have to get PCified. Those currently all male units that can say anything to each other will have to start watching what they say. I can see alot of sexual harasment cases from people who say "oh just treat me like everyone else" and had no idea of what they were giving permission for. All that I see in the adjustment period for the combat units, and I wonder how long it will take to get past that. I also wonder how big of an impact having to watch what you say in the middle of a firefight will take away from the morale and effectiveness of the units. Too bad segregation is taboo, it would negate all those problems.