Song of Mocking would raise the same question, would it not?

In the Hobbit Rules it states: Cards with the text "immune to player card effects" ignore the effects of all player cards. Additionally, cards that are immune to player card effects cannot be chosen as targets of player card effects. 

I think that second sentence would mean that neither Dori or mocking would work.

gatharion said:

No, not exactly.

Song of Mocking instructs you to "choose a hero" as the target of its effect. Since Beorn's immunity text specifically prevents him from being the target of player card effects, you can't use SoM to pull damage away from him. 

Dori, on the other hand, does not interact with Beorn directly; instead, Dori just redirects the assigned damage. Beorn never becomes the target of a player card effect.

Barring an official ruling to the contrary, Dori can pull damage away from Beorn, but SoM cannot.

I think the above is a perfectly correct assumption. But the "official rulings" tend to surprise. I would think it a bit anticlimactic indeed if no cards were able to combo with Beorn, unless we get some to support him later, like "All enemies attacking Beorn get -2 Attack Strength until the end of the phase."

Hi,

I'm still a little confused about "immune to player card effects". Not only Beorn, but also the new Smaug from the PoD "Battle for Lake-Town".

But…what about the cards that target your hero/ally/player but interact with the enemy (Smaug)? For example:

Quick Strike
[Event]
Action: Exhaust a character you control to immediately declare it as an attacker (and resolve its attack) against any eligible enemy target.

Thicket of Spears
[Event]
Text: You must use the resources from 3 different heroes' pools to pay for this card.
Action: Choose a player. That player's engaged enemies do not attack this phase.

Stand Together
[Event]
Text: Action: Choose a player. That player may declare any number of his eligible characters as defenders against each enemy attacking him this phase.

Obviously, I'm trying a tactics deck against Smaug…

 Maybe this should go on Rules sections, but I recycle this thread….

For Quick Strike, the effect is "to immediately declare it as an attacker …", where "it" refers to the character exhausted as cost.  So the effect would involve the selected hero and Beorn cannot be chosen for Quick Strike.

Similarly, for Stand Together, "That player may declare any number of his eligible characters as defenders …", Beorn will not be an eligible character because he is immune from card effects.

However, in Thicket of Spears, the first sentense is a limitation on paying the cost of the event, but not a card effect.  So you can pay for this event with Beorn's resource.  The event's effect only target a player but not a character, so Beorn is not involved in resolving this card's effect and is legal.

 As I see the Smaug questions:

You can use quick strike against Smaug as it targets a character (enabling him to attack) not Smaug itself (he is not immune to being attacked after all and the card opens a special attack window)

You can't block him with ticket of spears as he would ignore its effect and still attack (other enemies would not attack though).

As for stand together it seems that it is a bit complicated and I say:
In spirit of the rules:
You could defend his attack as the effect targets "mechanics" of defending not the Smaug itself
As far as written rules go:
The way the stand together is worded it seems that each enemy is its target hence Smaug would ignore its effects and you could not declare multiple defenders.

 I agree with both Angus and wojo's interpretations

Thanks both AL and Wojo for your replies!

 But, according at how the 3 cards are worded, shouldn't work the same way? I mean, in all of them, the "action:" forces you to choose/target a hero/ally/character you control (paying it's cost). Then, the effect resolves.

So, What's the line for "immune to player cards"? Immune when the card (Smaug) is the target as part of the cost? Immune when the effect resolves, and target the card (Smaug)? Both of them?

You don't actually target a hero when you use their resources, otherwise Beorn would be incapable of using his resources at all.

The difference in who can/can't affected by each of those cards is in the nuance of who they target an who their action effects affect.  

Quick Strike targets a character, and allows that character to make an attack outside of the normal combat phase.  It targets a character, so Beorn can't be affected by it.  The card effects of Quick never actually targets the enemy, just the character who is declaring a attack.  Since the Smaug can be hurt by attack made by characters, he will take damage if your character is strong enough to break though his defense.

Like Angus said, Stand together is basically the same.  The card effect only affect characters, not the enemy.

Thicket of Spears is the only card of the three who's written effects affect enemy cards, so Smaug would be immune to it.

This next comment is going back to some earlier posts about Beorn's immunity to attachments.  There is one benefit to it.  He is also immune to encounter attachments.  Sack cards (Carrock and We Must Away) and Tentacle attachments (Watcher) don't affect him either.

Thanks Kiwina!,

Now I've a clear idea of what can and can't play against Smaug. Sad that the best card to go against Smaug (Thicket of Spears) is useless. 

 Hm, I'm reading these a little differently.

Quick strike targets a character.  Beorn can't be targeted.  Smaug can be attacked. (sounds like we all agree here)

Stand together targets a player.  You should be able to use this with Beorn, and you should be able to defend attacks from Smaug with multiple characters when using this card.

Thicket of Spears also targets a player.  The card text doesn't target Smaug at all.  It's more like an immunity granted to the player (like Burning Brand).  Smaug wouldn't attack the player.

We know that Dori can help Beorn: Dori has a very clear and direct benefit for Beorn, but because the damage is intercepted and Beorn is only indirectly involved, this is legal.  It seems to be the same case for Stand Together and for Thicket of Spears.  Neither of the immune cards are targeted by the Stand Together or Thicket of Spears.  Sure the result changes the environment for the immune cards, but because the cards do not act directly on them, there is nothing for the immunity to prevent.

That is my interpretation, and it might be a minority interpretation.  I do think we need official elaboration on immunities in general.

Dain Ironfoot said:

What can you tell me about the interaction between Esgaroth Wharf (TBoLT) and Northern Tracker (Core)? Does the ability on the former block the Response effect of the latter?

And, more generically speaking, does "card" in LotR LCG refer only to cards in players hand or even to characters, attachments, etc in play? Sorry for the silly question, but I'm coming from a MtG background where "permanent" refers to cards in play.. =P

Thank you in advance!

benhanses said:

I would have agreed up until the latest delux expansion. Beorn's stats and the fact that I can recycle him with Landroval (&did) made him on e of my strongest Hero's in the last two quests. That being said, I lost the last quest, though I was doing better than I expected thanks to Beorn.

mr_pelle said:

"immune to player card effects" means any player card (event, attachment, ally or hero) cannot target that card.  Once a card is in the discard pile the text on the card is no longer active. So Beorn can be resurrected with "Fortune or Fate" or "Landroval".

Northern Tracker gets blocked because it's effect is a player card effect that would target the location. "Cards" are all cards on the table.