so…wait…we're fighting about who won the 13th Black Crusade?  Easy fix:  it was a tie!  Chaos got driven back, but they finally broke into Cadia…doubtless the Chaos stragglers will be hunted down (after causing much mayhem and misery), but Cadia will never be the same….the End Times indeed……

In fact Chaos is one of the most laughable enemies of the Imperium ATM though it should be the Archenemy.

The victories Chaos achieves are a side notice if you compare them to the sucess of the tyranids, orks or necrons.^^

Mabye only the Tau are more inferior though they achieve sucessfull expansion.xD

FieserMoep said:

Actually They have not all fully awakened, The Awakening has been going on for several mellinnia, however it did not go as planned and has been patchy at best. There are still possibly thousands if not millions of Tomb worlds that could still be slumbering. Not to mention Crown Worlds still to be awakened.

 Personally I like the New Codex. It gives the Necrons Character.. Before we pretty much had only Necron Warriors which were the soulless mindless killing machines. We still have that. However now we have much more depth and history. Before the Necrons were more mystery, now they are becomming known.

and yes they have the power even now to wipe Tera/Earth out. One tomb World Alone could all but destroy Tera and its entire Solar system with out so much as an invasion. The Tomb World of Thanatos holds the Celestial Orrery which has the power to cause any star in the galaxy to go supernova.

As far as a Regular Invasion Fleet. If the Necron Lords were to ever truly Unite.. Which is something that could still very well actually happen. Tera would not stand a chance.

computertrucker said:

I kind of agree about the Necrons with you. The new Necrons are much more interesting, at least for me, than the old ones and I can see how they can actually be used in my games.

In regards to Chaos, Chaos isn't an enemy like other enemies because its essentially not fighting a convential war but a spiritual war against the Imperium. To that they have the ability to take part and project force anywhere in the galaxy, but I kind of agree that the Tyranids and Necrons are actually made out a bit to powerful for a setting to fall entirely into my taste.

And this is why I speak of "Codex-Rape". Old super weapons are replaced by new ones and this turns WH40k in a Cold War Scenario that leads itself into nonsense. For example the Necrons recieved their fancy new tools, but as a counter measure the Grey Knights guard the terminus decree which is very likely the key to awaken the emperor himself, a beeing that could possibly become a god and kill anything that tries to attack Terra. Not to speak of a specific grey knights that walks on the planes of warp, raping bloodthirsters in their own home and fisting some daemon-primarchs.

And with the Necrons as the Archenemy of every living thing, and therefore the warp, Chaos is pretty much on the lower end of the food of chain. Just have a look at the tyranids, the big badass enemies of the 5th edition. They eat nearly everthing. The Orcs can not be defeated, there are just to many of them. Even the Tau celebrate their sucessfull expansion while the Eldar do nothing else than trickery, just like always. And Chaos? They recieve a minor victory, a foot hold that is very likely to be lost, some more potent enemies and a few new daemon worlds… wow… every notable chaos stronghold is guarded by warp… becaus chaos is always driven back… realy intimidating for the archenemy of mankind… and in the meantime the hive fleets just destroy the half of the galaxy and can only be driven back by horrendus losses… and guess what? The hive mind does not even care about that…

I sense resentment and disdain in your post?

Are you upset about a supposed CODEX Rapewriting? Or are you upset that Chaos is not the biggest threat in the Galaxy? The forces of Chaos by their very nature will never be that big of a threat. They are constantly warring with each other. They barbaric Brigands and Ruffians. Pillagers that at times spill out into Realspace to Cause Havoc and well Chaos.

In the end though. They have been defeated, and left wanting. Sorry if this upsets you. The truth may sting but it will also set you free.

I just remember the god old days when not every codex tries to beat another one by adding more and more absurd over-kill. I have no problem with the situation of chaos, I have a problem with the meta-balance of the different species. And with that I do not mean their balance in terms of a tabletop game but in terms of fluff. GW marketing has a goal, and that goal is selling miniatures and codizes. How do they achieve that? They regulalry release a new edition and release new codizes. And every fuckin ne codex is a conglomerate of overpowered badassdom that erases exisitng fluff in favor of some more awsome awsomeness. (Well, atleast they think it is) All the former grimdarkness has turned into a fashion show - who has the most fancy stuff now?

The problem I have with chaos is symptomatic for every major enemy. They are made so strong that they must include some stupid power limitation or, like the tyranids, they are so "strong" that they literaly chew through the imperium but then get always stopped and repelled because if not this would pretty much result in the end of the imperium (ye,ye with some horrible losses etc *sigh*), something that will never happen in a wargame without any story progress.

I look at in a way that they have expanded upon the tools and heroes that take part in the war. It would be like having a modern War game that gives players M1s, Combat Infantry, and Apaches.. yay thats neat.. However where is all the other stuff? Later expansions that add things like CAV Scouts, Bradly's Kiowa Warriors, BlackHawks and maybe rules for deep insertions. and an artillery piece.Shiney new things that during the initial writing of the game they didnt have time or resources to put in. All these things cost money to produce, and play testing. However if you play those things. You want to see it expanded. Same is true for 40K.

You always hear about CODEX creep in 40k and fantasy, and yes there are some CODEX's that have a slightly harder time at some things. However Any Codex in the hands of a good player can win games.

If I had a gripe with GW and their design philosophy its this. I dont think they should come out with new Editions untill every Faction has recieved and had time to play with the faction they have.

Privateer Press definately has a better production philosophy on this.  GW also does take entirely to long to put out Codexes, which is one of the reaons there are some imbalances.

As for Fluff. Yes GW has been guilty of changing things up from time to time. Then again look at Star Wars.. Its done the same thing 8). You want continuety I would recommend looking at Warmachine.. They have been VERY true to their story and timeline.

I had the players of my Rogue Trader campaign stop by Holy Terra on buisiness recently and this was the standing force I described defending the Solar System:

Luna - Terra's Moon, converted into a super battlefortress. Has arrays of super macrocanons and nova canons and generally enough firepower to cut down a battlecruiser.

The Eternal Dominatus - Super Battlecruiser, one of three still in service in the imperium. So massive and ancient it churns the warp around it, making it difficult for opposing ships to warp into a system under it's watch.

Planetary Voidshields - Enough to weather a few rounds of bombardment.

Phase Shields - Protecting the Imperial Palace itself, all but indestructable to planetary bombardment.

10 Battleships

30 Heavy Cruisers

2 Imperial Fist Battle Barges

40 Cruisers

100 Raiders

Legions of Smaller Non-Warp Capable Ships - Count as hazards in space combat.

Appologies to Venkelos for further derailing the original point of this thread, but…

FieserMoep said:

I've been slowly working my way throught he newest 40K Rulebook, and it seems to me that the background section is trying to 'walk back' the scale of the Tyranid threat. In 5th Ed. it was all but stated outright that the Tyranids would, with absolute certainty, destroy the galaxy; but the newest one includes two references to major Imperial victories against the Hive Fleets that make the 'nids sound like standard bad guys, on par with Orks. Am I reading too much into that, or is that everyone else's impression, too?

Cheddah said:

Said 'non-warp capable ships' are more often than not far more armoured or weaponized than naval ships. System defence ships can be more heavily armoured than light cruisers and carry comparable firepower, yet only be the size of a frigate. And they do this by not having over a third of the ship's space taken up by massive warp engines and gellar fields.

Speaking as a Rogue Trader who has gone up against both regular naval classes of ships and system defence ships, i would say i would always rather fight regular frigates and light cruisers - my ships come out of the fight better off.

If you try to crash land a ship into Terra, you will be vaporized out of the sky/space. The Emperor IS God to the Imperium, and if there is any possible threat, even so very little threat, it would warrant for virus bombs (they won't virus bomb Terra, but you get the point)

No one enters Terra until they are cleared. If anyone tries, for any reason, they will be destroyed. 

Sorry if this is off topic, but it seems the OP's question has already been answered, so…

crisaron said:

Ward cannot actually override such an integral element of that canon at this point in time. The Horus Heresy is the most consistent of the "canonized" 40k lore, and Graham McNiell's HH novel, Mechanicum, is quite clear that fact the Void Dragon is, indeed, on Mars. Even if Ward is given free license to muck up the GK and Necron lore in the Codecis, his fluff does not override the concrete nature of the HH as canonical 40k lore. The Void Dragon is on Mars.

That being said, the nature of the Omnissiah is a complicated matter. According to Warp-logic, as described in the Liber Chaotica, there are actually 3, maybe 4 Omnissiahs.

Most gods start as nebulous "spirits," a vacuum of identity in the Warp that must be filled. People believe in them and feed them with the psychic effluvia that feeds them, until they are strong enough to have a limited effect on the material universe. They do this to build themselves up, until their worship makes them effectively immortal, their worship (theoretically) never ceasing. Once a warp entity can perpetuate their existence in this manner they qualify as gods. (The Chaos Gods do not fit this model, except for the perpetuation of self, so the appelation "god" still does fit, as the last is the only real qualifier. The Emperor is also a god, but in a different way)

The concept of the Omnissiah is immediately divisible into three distinct "individuals": 1) The Omnissiah as an aspect of the Emperor, 2) The Omnissiah as his own Warp individuality, the one worshipped by those who do not believe the Emperor and the Omnissiah are aspects of one being, and 3) The Void Dragon, as placed on Mars, as described in the HH novel, Mechanicum.

A fourth Omnissiah may exist, if one considers the Omnissiah worshipped by religious members of the Dark Mechanicus to be separate from the 2nd Omnissiah described above (Ex: the hereteks in Ben Counter's second GK novel, Dark Adeptus).

But yeah, the Void Dragon as Omnissiah is still a thing.

Zappiel said:

Constantine Valdor defeated Horus in a friendly duel in the early stages of the Great Crusade. The HH Novels don't seem to be going in the direction of the Seige of Terra anytime soon. The duel between them is not reflective of Horus at the time of the Seige, nor should it be taken as such.

Zappiel said:

There has always been the presence of Chaos on Cadia. I would strongly recommend Aaron Dembski-Bowden's First Heretic. It's a wonderful read.

Besieging the surface of Terra would be incredibly difficult because of the numerous ground defences not to mention the labryinthine layout of the planet itself (One huge planet city reaching into the atmosphere…).

However the real defences of terra is the fact that it is not isolated unlike other Imperial worlds.  If it was attacked the Imperial forces would respond very quickly.  It is unlikely that any present enemy of the Imperium could muster a force large enough to take Terra before the rest of the Imperium responded.

I think the only exception would be the Tyranids.  What we know of them is that they can strike beneath the Galactic plane, have near limitless amounts of troops, evolve quickly and crucially when they attack a system they cut it off from communication.  If the Tyranids ever got a clear run at Terra then they might just be able to overrun it.  It would be an epic battle.