As far as I'm concerned the only rules we need for what concerns chapters is how their gene-seed works. Traditions and differences from the Codex structure are just something you decide before hand, we really don't need rules for that, it's the gene-seed that makes the difference. If we are given first founding chapters we have all we need to run any chapter we might think off.

We have 4 chapters already: Ultramarines, Space Wolfs, Dark Angels and Blood Angels, if we add to this Imperial Fist (or Black Templar since they are the don't have mutations from the original gene-seed) and Raven Guard or White Scars we have all the material we need to make any chapter we want.

I'm calling this 6 chapters out for the fact that Iron Hands and Salamander have practicaly no successor chapters and Raven Guard and White Scars have very limited numbers of successors.

Lucius Valerius said:

That isn't particularly accurate.  You're thinking of second founding successors.  It remains completely unknown how many successors those Chapters have in total.  The Raven Guard are the only one with serious geneseed flaws.  The rest have stable, healthy geneseed for founding new chapters.

TCBC Freak said:

Frankly?

I don't see Iron Hands as being divergent or interesting enough to work. The "Flesh is weak, strength in steel" bit is neat...but ehhhhhhh. If they want to include a "tech-savvy normal Marine", I'd say a Veteran Scout Sergeant/Captain would be far more interesting, especially given some Chapters that use full Brothers as Scout-Captains/Sergeants have their scout companies heavily trained in insurgency/guerilla warfare where those skills would be useful.

As for the art, I said in another thread that the silver hand/shoulderplate bit and then jumping immediately to "IRON HAND WOO!" is ridiculous. There's artwork of a Dark Angel and a Blood Angel both with their left arms+shoulderplates in silver. It's possible that the silver is done on the right for that art in question due to the fact that he has a bionic left, or it's also possibly a trick of perception and the lighting source.

Atheosis said:

The only instance of the Raven Guard having serious flaws comes from when their Primach was screwing around with cloning shortly after/during the Horus Heresy. And he made sure to destroy those Abominations before he vanished.

Kanluwen said:

Actually, the Iron Hands are one of the most codex-divergent Chapters...

Kanluwen said:

Actually the Raven Guard are documented to have various geneseed mutations which lead to pale white skin, jet black eyes and hair, and a very slow recruitment rate.  Said mutations are actually derived from the Corax's genetic experiments.

"Actually, the Iron Hands are one of the most codex-divergent Chapters.."

Do explain. All I can think of is the fact that they're rather dickish towards the general populations of the Imperium, still maintain their "Clans"/Companies and remove limbs for bionic replacements.

In the grand scheme of things...that's not really that divergent.

"Actually the Raven Guard are documented to have various geneseed mutations which lead to pale white skin, jet black eyes and hair, and a very slow recruitment rate. Said mutations are actually derived from the Corax's genetic experiments"

The mutations you mentioned were in play prior to the genetic experiments, as far as I remember. The Salamanders have similar mutations that led to coal black skin, a higher resistance to heat, etc. and they're still considered pretty stable.

But the "Abominations" were the result of Corax doing all kinds of wacky crap trying to replenish their numbers after the Dropsite Massacres.

Kanluwen said:

The Iron Hands have neither Chaplains nor Techmarines, but instead have Iron Fathers who fulfill both roles.  They are organized into Clan Companies that operate independently.  They do not have a veteran company, a scout company, or reserve companies.  Instead each Clan Company has its own units of veterans, specialists, and scouts.  They likewise generally do not field full squads of Terminators, outfitting their veteran squad leaders with such armor instead.  So yeah, they're about as un-Codex as they come.  The bionics, "Flesh is Weak", and AdMech ties are all just gravy.  In all honesty, the Iron Hands are probably the biggest waste of good SM material that I can think of in 40k (the other being the Raven Guard).  They're a very distinctive and interesting Chapter that has consistently sat on the back burner for pretty much ever.

As far as Raven Guard mutations go, refer to this: wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Raven_Guard    

TONS of Astartes Chapters have organs that no longer work. The Ultramarines are, as far as I know, the only ones that have all of their organs still functional. That doesn't hold water for me as evidence of mutations in the Raven Guard.

Those abominations that they used for attacking the Iron Warriors' fortress are supposedly the ones that Corax made via his experimentation with cloning following the Dropsite Massacres, which Corax destroyed/took with him alongside of his research when he vanished.

Kanluwen said:

Geneseed lacking in mutations:

1. Ultramarines

2. Iron Hands

3. White Scars

4. Salamanders (their appearance as far as I'm aware isn't a mutation but rather a reaction of their melanochrome to the intense radiation of their planet)

5. Dark Angels

As far the Raven Guard go, it's well established that they have highly flawed geneseed.  If you don't want to acknowledge that that's your business, but GW has stated over and over that their geneseed is so flawed that they can't even replinish their numbers at a normal rate.

I think we're using different definitions of mutation here.

Raven Guard don't exhibit the real aberrations that we see in the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, etc. Pale skin and jet black hair is pretty much nothing in the grand scheme of things.

I'm with Atheosis on this one. Like it or not but the darkening of the hairs and whitening of the skin is due a mutation is one of the gene-seeded organs (don't know which one tho). It might be little BUT it is still a mutation.

Ähm, Sorry

Butt The Dark Angels, hasn´t had or will ever an Genseed Mutaiton!! 

Because they are the First Ever Foundet Chapter of Space Marines,

only the Grey Nights Chapter from the Holly Inquisitor of Ordo Malleus has the same Purity of Genseeds!!

That i found here : wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Progenoid

Chapters with known gene-seed flaws:

* Blood Angels: Black Rage and the Red Thirst.
* Imperial Fists: Missing Betcher's Gland and Sus-an Membrane.
* Space Wolves: Enlarged canine teeth and Mark of the Wulfen.
* Raven Guard: Missing Mucranoid and Betcher's Gland. Pale skin and dark eyes.
* Blood Ravens:can't experience R.E.M. sleep and have perfect recall.
* Salamanders: Onyx black skin and bright red eyes. (Malfunctioning Malenochrome gland)

regards

Custodes said:

It's already been stated that Dark Angels have no geneseed flaws.  They have all kinds of other issues though.

I'm just of the opinion that for Chapters like the Salamanders, Blood Angels, and Raven Guard(off the top of my head)"mutations" are too strong of a word for the Gene-seed flaws.

I'm far happier with aberrations or "whoopsies".