Wayfinder said:

Other source books have made it very clear that Astartes gear is quite a bit better and more deadly than the normal versions.  Purge the Unclean actually provides stats for a fair amount of Astartes gear, and it is in fact quite a bit better than the stuff available to DH characters.

If anything what you're hoping for (vehicles and Dreadnought PCs) is far less likely than what your dismissing.

There is almost certainly going to be some physical 'upgrades' compared to previous games. Space marines are supposed to be faster, stronger and tougher than normal humans (as evidenced in the TT version by having 1 higher in several stats than IGs. Yes, horrible example, but example none the less). Also, according to fluff, they can go days without sleep beause they can switch off pieces of their brain and still function perfectly, thus 'half sleeping' while being operative. There are several accounts of marines being active for days on one with no ill effects. Also, the effects of the various implants have been pretty well catalogued, so they're also likely to show increased resistance to critical damage, etc.

But, I'm withholding too much speculation until the book is out. However, I do hope we get to see both Chaplains and Librarians as well. Fighting xenos without a Librarian could be... quite unpleasant at times

Urikanu said:

Librarians have been confirmed, but Chaplains are probably a no go.  There really have never been Chaplains in Deathwatch as far as the lore is concerned, so I would be very surprised (and a bit annoyed) if they were implemented.

I'll point out that as fluff marines, you will be a two dimensional character.  In the Darkness of the Far Future, there is only angst. 

I'll also remind everyone that space marine novels tend to gloss over the part where in the back ground, millions if not billions of IG are soaking up the casualties and dishing out the bulk of the damage while the marines hog the spotlight while awaiting the Deus Ex Machina that they will use to exicute an asspull victory.  Unstoppable hoard of nids?  We'll create a poison that will cause them to all kill themselves.  Confronting the Nightbringer alone in a tiny chamber with no hope of survival?  We'll somehow manage to threaten him with a bunch of melta bombs.  (Never mind that he'd rise from the dead again shortly anyway according to fluff)  Gigantic fortress full of raving CSMs?  I wonder what this 'self destruct' button does?  

In the darkness of the Far Future, there are only James Bond Villians. 

BaronIveagh said:

Space Marines are not inherently two-dimensional.  Countless novels show that they can have a fair bit of depth.  You can play them as angry kill-bots if you like, but it's not necessary.

By the way do you actually like the 40k setting?

Atheosis said:

Also, in addition to this... It is quite often shown as the IG doing the heavy lifting. Take the 'unstoppable horde of nids' example, which I assume is from the second novel of the Ultramarines omnibus... There's a -LOT- of IG killing a hell of a lot of Nids before they finally manage to find a toxin, which is the inquisitions work, not the SM's... they're just the delivery boys after all.

As for 2-D characters... Not really. At least not IMO. There's plenty of  room for both mental, social and physical development within the SM setting. I evidence Ragnar of the Space Wolves as an iconic example. Granted, they do tend to move in their own circles, but being bio.engineered super soldiers, I don't really blame them.

I for one am looking forward to this product immensely, to round out the series of games focused on humanity. Between the Inquisition, the Rogue Traders and the Space Marines they've covered a fair bit of the options for RP characters (not that it is by any means exhausted yet )

Atheosis said:

I did, once, but I generally despise the directions it's been taken in.  I REALLY hate a certain Ultramarines author.  Sandy Mitchell isn't very original, but it's still good stuff on his part.   Kim Newman was probably the best of the Black Library writers but has mysteriously vanished being chased by a certain dashing Count... 

That and I detest retcons.  And Joe Queseda.  ....   Come to think of it, I would like one retcon.  That Queseda was working at Blizzard, Andy Chambers was running GW, and Joe Mad was in chage of Marvel Comics...  Or better that Queseda had simply been terminated...

...terminated...

  *pushes button on desk*

Get me Summer Glau...

Wow, what did Kim Newman write? I don't think I've ever even heard of her... nor Joe Quesada.  You are leaving out the first BL author to actually get stuff in Hardcover (Dan Abnett) who does a fine job of showing the merciless IG meatgrindering that is 40k, not to mention what, half a dozen other authors who do work for them actually in the 40k setting. (like William King and Lee Lightner's Ragnar series, or Gav Thorpe's Dark Angels).

Originality? are you really complaining that Sandy Mitchell isn't original in 40k? The setting that doesn't have a single original thing going for it?  Orks (Tolkien), Space Marines (the guy who wrote starship troopers... add in original nids to that too, and imperial guard...), Necrons (Terminators), Tyranids (starship troopers & Giger's aliens), The Imperium as a whole? Starship troopers' totalitarian government lead by Space Jesus, c'mon man.  Tau? Giant Anime Robots to appeal to an Asian audience.  Am I leaving anything out?  Oh right, Eldar as Vulcans and Dark Eldar as Romulans, can't forget the space elves.  It's the circle of rip offs, D&D Ripped Tolkien (Tolkien ripped others before him), GamesWorkshop ripped off D&D, Blizzard ripped off GamesWorkshop.  What IS appealing about Gamesworkshop is more than the base, more than the unoriginal origins, but what they DO with the setting.  They've done a great job of making the Empire of Space Jesus believable for it's place. 

At least Sandy Mitchell wrote Ciaphas Cain, which is easily probably the best long-term series of 40k books in the Black Library at present (not including the Eisenhorn and Ravenor trilogies).

MILLANDSON said:

I disagree. Mitchell is one of the weaker BL authors imo, his books all suffer from similar problems, all of them seem stodgily written to me, they all feature an endless cycle of -action-sit down exposition dump meeting-action-exposition dump meeting-action- etc etc. The core concept of the Cain books is an okay idea (Flashman in 40K), but the Cain books don't capture the magic of Flashman imho, Cain is neither a coward, or much of a womaniser, he's basically a self-deprecating 'nice guy'. That makes for a far less fun 'ride'.

Much better authors imo are Dan Abnett (of course), Anthony Reynolds (his Word Bearer series is waaaay better written and more imaginative imo than the Cain books), Matthew Farrer (okay he seems to be off the radar at them moment unfortunately, but again his Shira Calpurnia books are considerably superior to the Cain books), and Graham MacNiell (okay controversial this one I know - but he seems to have really upped his game lately - his Horus Heresy books have been excellent for example).  

BrotherHostower said:

40k isn't original?  Please point me to all the gothic sci-fi that existed prior to its creation in the 80s then. 

Admittedly many of the elements of 40k, if taken individually, are derivative, but the way that the setting is constructed as a whole is pretty damn unique.

Adam France said:

Matt Farrer has a new Calpurnia book coming out this year, I think. It's up on the BL website.

No idea what Flashman is, but considering some of the other material in the BL - Mitchell stands out like a beacon for me.

BrotherAtrox said:

Harry Flashman was a bully character from Tom Brown's Schooldays, a public schoolboy novel written in the 1850s. Flashman was pretty much the cowardly bully villain of the book.

In the 1970s (iirc) the British author George Macdonald Fraser had the genius idea of taking Flashman (who had perversely been Fraser's favourite character when he read Schooldays) and telling what happened next for the character. Flashman had been shown to be a clever liar, able to fool people, and handsome and charming when he wanted to be, so Fraser wrote a long series of classic books that were (for the most part) scrupulously true to real history where Flashman becomes an unworthy Victorian military hero despite actually remaining in fact a bully, coward, womaniser, cheat, cad, etc. The books are written as if they were written in old age by Flashman himself, just before WWI, and were so well written many reviewers (especially in America) mistook them for actual memoirs of an actual Victorian military hero.

They remain some of my all time favourite novels. If you want to judge Mitchell's failings read the Flashman books.

Hell, read them anyway, they are classics.

(Mitchell has been honest from the get-go his Cain stories are homages to Flashman btw, no secret or scandal there.)

Good news about the new Calpurnia book! :-) 

Atheosis - I'll have to look, I'm sure there were pulp fiction writers who wrote about dark, gritty, gothic futures, most likely back in the 50's during the great depression.  40k is as original as... Shakespear, the baseline ideas, not original, what they did with the base ideas, very original AND extremely well done.  Heck, even Star Wars could be seen in a similar fashion, difference being, 40k is from the position of the Empire  as opposed to the rebels, that and they jacked up the scale of everything a thousand fold.   There's nothing wrong with not starting with original ideas and taking them to your own place, that's how some of the best games/movies/books end up coming about (Shakespear still one of the ideal examples of doing what people already know and making them argueably "better.")  Warhammer 40k is pulp fiction, fun, gritty and not meant to be literature, that doesnt' make it bad, just people need to know that kinda thing going into it and not nit pick it.

Speculations on mechanics aside, I think a big part of what could make Deathwatch really awesome will be the roleplay aspect. To create a truly heroic warrior who has cut his way through countless battlefields and faced a greater variety of foes than most Imperial citizens even know exist: that has the potential to be pretty special. I hope (in fact, trust) that something in character creation will reflect this rich background.

I certainly look forward to playing a multifaceted character, with ambitions and regrets, and hundreds of years of memories; playing someone who has forgotten more dramatic and breathtaking events than most people will ever experience.