Blue Wizard said:

I don't care about the mechanics or the gimmicks- that I can live with and I can see past the fear of this being a boardgame, but that, Varnias, is probably the best answer to your questions. The fact that I have to buy EVERYTHING AGAIN (I own every WFRP 2 book minus Plundered Vaults) is absolutely the one thing that maybe is going to put me of from buying WFRP 3. Its not the mechanics or the fancy kewl new dice (although boxes is going to be a logistical nightmare), it's simply the fact that I feel disillusioned over the prospect of having to buy books describing what I already know from the 2nd. ed. books.

PS: Varnias, please don't be too smug and arrogant, it sets you in a very bad light that might determine whether or not your posts are worth replying. If you don't treat others with respect you won't get a discussion, but a mud-throwing contest. (Of course continue to smug and arrogant if you want to, I just won't think of you as someone worth replying.)

We should stop bickering before we have seen an actial demo of the new system.

IMO FFG could easily have made new flashy cards, other helpers for 2nd Ed and custom dice for more advanced rules instead of killing the distribution. It's really all about marketing, and the willingness to put in an effort. We are many that now believed that we had a stable 2nd Ed and could rely on new stuff coming as promissed. That's why I can understand why some are dissapointed.

buying everything over again is why I stopped playing AD&D when 2nd edition came out.  It wasn't until late in the 3.5 edition that I picked it up again (A hiatus of over 15 years I'd estimate.)  When I got in,I got in big, and bought lots of books and supplements.  But with the shift to 4th edition, nothing from the previous is remotely able to make the transition (they don't even mention greyhawk in the PHB) because the rule mechanics are so very different.  Sure, the background fluff could work, just re-stat everything manually, but for that amount of effort, I can make up my own world completely from scratch.

This is why I have yet to buy a single D&D 4th edition book.  I don't support rule system transitions that leave so little commonality between them.

Thank you FFG, for putting a lot of work into making the 2nd edition PDF books available, even more with corrections.  Sorry, I don't think I'll be buying your 3rd ed game.  But look at it this way, you're getting my money twice since I'm buyng the pdfs (I own every 2nd ed book) so be happy with that.

Chernobyl

OK heres a few things to consider.

  Say Dark Heresy 2nd ed, comes out in a big box with new custom dice, a bunch of cards, new books and not much other information.  Wound you be happy with that?  It's still even a future possibility.

Mostly its a few things, the bigest (for me anyway) is we kept getting told Its not a boardgame but are not being shown its not a board game.  I'm sure anyone can list a few board games from FFG that have the same exact stuff listed only just with a board, hell I have even played the WoW boardgame as RPG lite.

The dice and cards while adding tools also add distractions on the gaming 'table'.  Not to mention they make the game alot more difficuilt to modify and customise to your own playing style.  Also because it generaly caters for only 3 players (and a GM) most groups will have to cut back on players or do something about extra sets.  Haps they cant have even 2 playes with the same career.

On top of that its not even in a good price range for use as a source for fluff, though there is always a core of material that gets reprinted for a new edition before anything else gets done.

  How is advancement kept track of, a core mechanic of RPGs is persistent character progression, a factor that seems to have been purposefully avoided being answered.

Alot of Warhammer players have been playing for 15+ years and have likely acumilated some of their own ways of doing things and likely a good collection of dice as well, both of which may just have to be thrown out the window if they go the path of third ed.

Over all though I think its simply the fact that FFG has kept everyone in the dark and not answering any questions, for what I can tell no reason other than to keep their fanbase in the dark.

When a third ed was asked about was their any reason not to say yes we are doing one but thats all we can say.  Now its been announced all the fans get is a description that taks about the pritty price increasing bits but no information on the actual game fundementals it self.

The best bet is you likely wont understand because you have no investment in WFRP currently, likewise because I dont play Dark Heresy something like this being announced for it woulnt bother me either since I have no investment in Dark Heresy.

LordofEndTimes said:

Why do you have to buy everything all over again? I mean, if you (and the rest of the 2nd ed players) know that this third edition will probably contain the same stuff as previous incarnations, only with some new and gimmicky mechanics, then just don't buy it.

And as for the new content for 2nd ed issue. I don't know about you bu from what i've understood the core set of the third edition will contain about four books. It's pretty safe to assume that these will summarize most information about what has been written in previous supplements. This could mean that FFG could focus on releasing the wanted supplement material a lot quicker than before.

So my suggestion is that you refrain from buying the particular products that already contain the information you already know and focus on buying any eventual upcoming products that contain information that has been unkown to you so far. Sure, you might have to convert the mechanics a bit for 2nd ed, but seriously whenever I buy a supplement book I've always found mechanics that needs to be changed in some way, so that kind of headache is mandatory in this hobby anyway.

LordofEndTimes said:

Focus on what I say instead of how im saying it and everybody will be happy.

Still I find it funny that my demeanor has gotten so much attention. Because few people have reacted the same way towards the doom prophets on these messageboards that hold an equally bad and disrespectful demeanor. What's the matter really? Why should I be more "friendly" than they are?

Loswaith said:

This is how I would react: If I think this new 2nd edition of Dark Heresy contains enough interesting aspects, then I would buy it and try it out. On the other hand, if I felt that it simply contained the same stuff as before, only in a new package with uninteresting gimmicky mechanics, I wouldn't buy it. However I might buy any future supplements for it, if they seem to contain information that was never released to the edition I've invested in.

What I wouldn't do is calling the game dead, and moan that much about it nor accusing it of being a boardgame either. So why not show the world that you can all be just as graceful (and even more so) than that smug, arrogant bastard Varnias Tybalt?

Varnias Tybalt said:

I'm a huge fan of Dark Heresy (as demonstrated by my admin status over at Dark Reign), and I fully agree with this. It's pretty much exactly what I'd do should DH 2E be released in a few years time.

MILLANDSON said:

That's nice to hear. Because I was beginning to think that I might not be that big of a fan that I have so far considered myself to be, simply because I wouldn't be as upset and heartbroken like many of the posters here if FFG decided to do a 2nd edition of Dark Heresy with gimmicky mechanics.

Then again, now you and I might get accused for not being devoted enough to our game...

Blue Wizard said:

There are a few issues that could be really bad with this as well and as I am uncertain to how it actually will be those worst case scenario thoughts are forming and the only way to stop them will be answers........ and from what I know there are bad things as well.

I know that halflings dissapear and that is not good.....I like the fellas and even if there rarely is one in the group the same can be said for anything except humans.

There are less careers, sure one would have to excpect this there are hundreds in the career compendium but maybe I have to wait until the careers I want to play comes.....what if they removed Seaman....I don´t know which are gone. I will have at max 39 careers to chose from (apprentice wizard doesn´t count beacouse it´s a spellcaster and there might be more spellcasters there).

Two of three books are for magic (divine and arcane) and I´m not a big fan of magic.

I don´t like the cover artwork....not a big deal but still.

And as a sidenote I don´t think we have been told what´s in the fourth book, there is the tome of mystery, tome of blessings, tome of adventures and tome number four....what is in tome number four.

Leogun_91 said:

Really? Wow! Another point to the WFRP 3rd ed salespitch scoreboard.

While my hatred primarily concern elves first hand, halflings are a close runner up. And I know you can't really escape elves in a fantasy setting, but if the halflings are out then that's at least a plus, however... "small" it may be. (no pun intended ). This edition of the game just sound better and better!

Varnias Tybalt said:

While my hatred primarily concern elves first hand, halflings are a close runner up. And I know you can't really escape elves in a fantasy setting, but if the halflings are out then that's at least a plus, however... "small" it may be. (no pun intended ). This edition of the game just sound better and better!

My naysaying reasons:

-Lack of taking advantages of stuff not out for 2nd ed (or 1st ed for that matter), and instead the same thing done over again, not refreshing anything. (Or if they are remaking it as heroic fantasy with stances and challenges, well, that's even worse).

-Boardgame/cardgame/flashy replacements. Having played rpgs for over 15 years now I think, the amount of extra "junk" I have gotten from boxes and so on is astounding, yet not once has it helped much. (Earthdawn 1st ed cards for some items and monsters etc seemed a good idea when buying it, but quickly got scrapped. Dragonlance [I think it was] had this cardgame system too, and the least interesting rpg as a system I have ever played) The whole argument about "less bookkeeping and less needing to look up in books or calculate dice/skill rolls" I find rather funny - the moment I want to change anything, it ends up being WAY more difficult, or would remove some of the appeal with post it notes on the careers, items or other things instead of having one in my book for easy reference - or a handwritten sheet of paper added onto the gm screen. Add in having to pay for all the extra gimmic pieces whenver buying a suplement, making it more costly if wanting to "datamine" it for stuff to use, and it's even more annoying. Of course, for everyone that just plays games right out of the box I can see the HUGE bonus of this way of doing it. And judging by the marketing, they want new people to just pick up and play, so that seems to hold up.

-Customization options. The one thing that makes rpgs different from each other is the system and the setting. I always roll my eyes about Kage's constant GURPS GURPS GURPS posts, but I am really starting to understand him. You find a system you like that lets you create the "numbers and writing" part of the character (the personality you dont need the rpg for, you could easily just do that with some friends and imagination anyway), and the system lets you do what you want easy and creates interesting situations. From what I see about 3rd ed, it tries to shoehorn players into something (even having a player cap included!), much like boardgames or cardgames, and with that in mind, I bet there will be more narrative and characterization involved playing Chaos in the Old World (gawd, I am looking so much foward to that!) and games like that.

-The cost. It's new and all that, so it would be interesting to take a look even though I won't be playing it (my group would never play it, just as it would never play 4th ed D&D), and if it somehow would have something incredibly fun about it, I just won't bother to buy a whole box and hope it will convince me it is awesome. If that pricing strategy will keep up, I somehow doubt I'll ever buy any new stuff for it either.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Was describing the new edition to one of my regular players a couple of days ago. I'll admit I was fairly scathing about pretty much every aspect of it, but he was just shrugging it all off and saying things like "sounds interesting" or "we could work round that". Then I mentioned "no halflings", he's no longer willing to even give it a try.

So not everyone shares your own personal preferences.

BTW, why are you bothering with a fantasy RPG when you don't like 2 of the staple races of pretty much any fantasy setting and specifically, staple races of the Warhammer background (until now anyway)?

Actually, it has been mentioned that there indeed will be haflings, but in a separate supplement

Told him that. It just means he has no interest in the game until that supplement comes out at the very earliest.

Personally I think it's a sign of the direction the game/background is going in and it's one of the things I don't like from what we've been told so far. Halflings being relegated to "secondary race" status isn't good.